Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

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lpetrich
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Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by lpetrich »

I'm sorry if this seems annoying :(, but I could not help but post on Lord Raglan's famous hero profile. I think that it is relevant to the historicity of Jesus Christ, because he scores much more like legendary people than like well-documented real people.

Lord Raglan had a predecessor, Freudian psychoanalyst Otto Rank: The Myth of the Birth of the Hero From Section III:
The standard saga itself may be formulated according to the following outline: The hero is the child of most distinguished parents, usually the son of a king. His origin is preceded by difficulties, such as continence, or prolonged barrenness, or secret intercourse of the parents due to external prohibition or obstacles. During or before the pregnancy, there is a prophecy, in the form of a dream or oracle, cautioning against his birth, and usually threatening danger to the father (or his representative). As a rule, he is surrendered to the water, in a box. He is then saved by animals, or by lowly people (shepherds), and is suckled by a female animal or by an humble woman. After he has grown up, he finds his distinguished parents, in a highly versatile fashion. He takes his revenge on his father, on the one hand, and is acknowledged, on the other. Finally he achieves rank and honors.
Lord Raglan wrote about his profile in his book The Hero, and gave some details about how he evaluated several heroes. His profile:
1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

One has to interpret his criteria rather loosely, otherwise hardly anyone would get a high score. One may consult Lord Raglan's scoring for interpretation hints. I could find his scorings in the preview at books.google.com.

His scores:
Oedipus 21, Theseus 20, Romulus 18, Heracles 17, Perseus 18, Jason 15, Bellerophon 16, Pelops 13, Asclepius 12, Dionysus 19, Apollo 11, Zeus 15, Joseph (in Genesis) 12, Moses 20, Elijah 9, Watu Gunung (of Java) 18, Nyikang (Shiluk cult hero) 14, Sigurd or Siegfried 11, Llew Llawgyffes 17, King Arthur 19, and Robin Hood 13.

He was careful to avoid scoring Jesus Christ, for fear of an obvious sort of controversy. However, folklorist Alan Dundes had done so, finding a score of 20. I myself find:
Matthew: 19
Mark: 11
Luke: 16
John: 13
Combined: 18 1/2

Otto Rank mentioned something that Lord Raglan curiously neglected: prophecy fulfillment. I've found that to be common among legendary heroes, though absent among well-documented ones. Jesus Christ fits that one well also.
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by Bernard Muller »

Ipetrich,
Can you say how you scored for each 22 points for Jesus according 1) to gMark 2) to gMatthew?
And then explain why you went differently as I did:
I got 7 for gMark and 13 for gMatthew.

1. The hero’s mother is a virgin. Mk: 0, Mt: 1
2. His father is a king or the heir of a king. 0, 1
3. The circumstances of his conception are unusual. 0, 1
4. He is reputed to be the son of a god. 1, 1
5. An attempt is made to kill him when he is a baby. 0, 1
6. To escape which he is spirited away from those trying to kill him. 0, 1
7. He is reared in a foreign country by one or more foster parents. 0, 1
8. We are told nothing of his childhood. 1, 1
9. On reaching manhood he returns to his future kingdom. 0, 0
10. He is crowned, hailed or becomes king. 1, 1
11. He reigns uneventfully (i.e., without wars or national catastrophes). 0, 0
12. He prescribes laws. 1, 1
13. He then loses favor with the gods or his subjects. 1, 1
14. He is driven from the throne or city. 0, 0
15. He meets with a mysterious death. 0, 0
16. He dies atop a hill or high place. 1, 1
17. His children, if any, do not succeed him. 0, 0
18. His body turns up missing. 1, 1
19. Yet he still has one or more holy sepulchers (in fact or fiction). 0, 0
20. Before taking a throne or a wife, he battles and defeats a great adversary (such as a king, giant, dragon or wild beast). 0, 0
21. His parents are related to each other. 0, 0
22. He marries a queen or princess related to his predecessor. 0, 0
Cordially, Bernard
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lpetrich
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by lpetrich »

Here goes:

1. Hero’s mother is a royal virgin;
She's not called the Virgin Mary for nothing, though she has undistinguished ancestry. However, the two genealogies in Matthew and Luke are sometimes retconned by supposing one of them to be of Mary, though I find that rather weak.
Mt: 1/2
Mk: 0
Lk: 1/2
Jn: 0

2. His father is a king, and
Both Matthew and Like trace Joseph's ancestry back to King David, an ancestry that a Messiah ought to have
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 1
Jn: 0

3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
No.
All four: 0

4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
Being impregnated by the Holy Spirit doesn't happen every day. In effect, Mary was raped by a ghost.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 1
Jn: 1

5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
He is the Son of God
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 1
Jn: 1

6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather to kill him, but
King Herod killed the Bethlehem baby boys to try to kill him.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 0
Jn: 0

7. He is spirited away, and
His (step-)parents flee to Egypt with him
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 0
Jn: 0

8. Reared by foster-parents in a far country.
They raise him in Egypt, though Mary is his mother and Joseph his (step)father.
Mt: 1/2
Mk: 0
Lk: 0
Jn: 0

9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
He showed great learning in the Jerusalem Temple
Mt: 1
Mk: 1
Lk: 1/2
Jn: 1

10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
He leaves his family and goes into the desert.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 1
Jn: 0

11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
He successfully resists the Devil's temptations, and the Devil slinks away in shame.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Lk: 1
Jn: 0

12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
He has no known Significant Other. Mary Magdalene, often speculated to be his SO, was an undistinguished commoner.
All four: 0

13. And becomes king.
He becomes a great religious leader, and he even calls himself King of the Jews.
All four: 1

14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
He preaches, he gets into arguments with Pharisees, and he works various miracles, but most of his career is not very dramatic.
All four: 1

15. Prescribes laws, but
His teachings are sort of like laws, and he address actual laws in some of them.
All four: 1

16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
After his triumphant entrance into Jerusalem, both the people of that city and the Jewish leaders there turn against him. They charge him with blasphemy for calling himself the Messiah and the King of the Jews, and in Matthew, the people form a lynch mob.
All four: 1

17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
He is put on trial, Peter disowns him, and Peter and his other disciples flee.
All four: 1

18. He meets with a mysterious death,
He dies after only three hours of crucifixion, which is unusually fast for a young man in good enough health to do a lot of walking. There were also earthquakes, a mysterious darkening, and corpses taking walks from their tombs.
All four: 1

19. Often at the top of a hill,
Golgotha, "Skull Hill"
All four: 1

20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
Despite certain extracanonical speculations, he is childless.
All four: 1

21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
He was buried in a tomb, but he did not stay buried. He got resurrected and he departed from it.
All four: 1

22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
He has one in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, though this is later than the Gospels.
All four: 1

I did most of the scoring in List of Lord Raglan evaluations - Atheism, and that's what I worked from here. My scores:
Matthew: 19
Mark: 11
Luke: 16
John: 13
Combined: 18 1/2
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by neilgodfrey »

lpetrich wrote: 1. Hero’s mother is a royal virgin;
She's not called the Virgin Mary for nothing, though she has undistinguished ancestry.
Only in the canonical gospels. Justin Martyr and the Infancy Gospel of James tell us that Mary was a descendant of the royal line of David.
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lpetrich
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by lpetrich »

Where do they do that? Do you have any links to online copies? I don't want to go on a wild text chase.
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by neilgodfrey »

lpetrich wrote:Where do they do that? Do you have any links to online copies? I don't want to go on a wild text chase.
Infancy Gospel 10:1 http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/ ... berts.html

Can't locate the Justin reference- - I may have misremembered that one.
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by lpetrich »

Titled link: Infancy Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

That only bumps Jesus Christ's score higher, it must be said -- she was both royal and a virgin.

Gospel of Philip (Wesley W. Isenberg's translation)

It supports the notion that Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene had had a close relationship.
And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples [...]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them,"Why do I not love you like her? ..."
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by maryhelena »

lpetrich wrote:Titled link: Infancy Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

That only bumps Jesus Christ's score higher, it must be said -- she was both royal and a virgin.
So - the gospel Jesus figure, on Lord Raglan's hero profile, can be given a high rating. Keep in mind, however, that such a high rating does not negate the possibility that there is a historical reflection in that literary, mythological, figure. All the use of this hero profile does is support the obvious - the gospel figure of Jesus is not a historical figure. The question then becomes - what does this mythological or symbolic figure represent for it's creators?

The Carrier-Doherty theory maintains that this gospel Jesus figure is a historicized version of a Pauline celestial christ figure. Interestingly, Carrier admits, in his new book, that a 'political fiction' theory "suits the Gospels well".

Page 53/54

If ‘Jesus Christ began as a celestial deity’ is false, it could still be that he began as a political fiction, for example (as some scholars have indeed argued - the best examples being R.G. Price and Gary Courtney). But as will become clear in following chapters (especially Chapter 11), such a premise has a much lower prior probability (and thus is already at a huge disadvantage over Premise 1 even before we start examining the evidence), and a very low consequent probability though it suits the Gospels well, it just isn't possible to explain the evidence in the Epistles this way, and the origin of Christianity itself becomes very hard to explain as well). Although I leave open the possibility it may yet be vindicated, I’m sure it’s very unlikely to be, and accordingly I will assume its prior probability is too small even to show up in our math. This decision can be reversed only by a sound and valid demonstration that we must assign it a high prior or consequent, but I leave to anyone who thinks it’s possible. In the meantime, what we have left is Premise 1, such that if that is less probable than minimal historicity, then I would be convinced historicity should be affirmed (particularly as the ‘political fiction’ theory already fits historicity and thus is not really a challenge to it – indeed that’s often the very kind of fiction that gets written about historical persons.)


Page 31

But showing that the Gospel Jesus didn’t exist does not show Jesus Christ didn’t exist, because it could still be the case that the real Jesus Christ is the one who inspired these unrealistic narratives about him, and that some actual facts about him really are hidden in there somewhere (even if we can never find out which facts these are).

So - behind, underneath - or sideways.......... :) there could well be a historical figure that inspired the gospel story. To rephrase Carrier:

"But showing that the Gospel Jesus didn't exist does not show that a historical figure didn't exist, because it could still be the case that a real historical figure is the one who inspired these unrealistic narratives about him, and that some actual facts about him really are hidden in there somewhere (even if we can never find out which facts these are)"

Keep in mind that there is no logical jump from the gospel Jesus did not exist to the Carrier-Doherty theory that the gospel Jesus is a Pauline celestial god historicized and, full circle, becomes a celestial god once more. That theory is proposing that theology trumps whatever history, whatever political content, is being reflected within the gospel Jesus figure.
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by GakuseiDon »

lpetrich wrote:Titled link: Infancy Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

That only bumps Jesus Christ's score higher, it must be said -- she was both royal and a virgin.
Also Tertullian in "On the flesh of Christ":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian15.html
  • ... the root of Jesse is the family of David, and the stem of the root is Mary descended from David, and the blossom of the stem is Mary's son, who is called Jesus Christ... for every step indeed in a genealogy is traced from the latest up to the first, so that it is now a well-known fact that the flesh of Christ is inseparable, not merely from Mary, but also from David through Mary, and from Jesse through David. "This fruit," therefore, "of David's loins," that is to say, of his posterity in the flesh, God swears to him that "He will raise up to sit upon his throne." If "of David's loins," how much rather is He of Mary's loins, by virtue of whom He is in "the loins of David?"
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Re: Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

Post by Bernard Muller »

Thanks, ipetrich,
I reviewed your scoring and made some correction on mine:
1. Hero’s mother is a royal virgin;
She's not called the Virgin Mary for nothing, though she has undistinguished ancestry. However, the two genealogies in Matthew and Luke are sometimes retconned by supposing one of them to be of Mary, though I find that rather weak.
Mt: 1/2
Mk: 0
I have to reduce my score for gMatthew. Now I put 1/2. You are right: here Mary is a virgin but not from royal blood, as according to gMatthew.
2. His father is a king, and
Both Matthew and Like trace Joseph's ancestry back to King David, an ancestry that a Messiah ought to have
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
I disagree about Joseph, as said to be a descendant of David royal line in gMatthew, would make him a king. However because God is sometimes considered "King" in the OT, I still put a 1 for gMatthew (which has God as the biological father of Jesus).
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
No.
All four: 0
Yes 0 according to the canonical gospels. What was written in the 2nd century should not be included.
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
Being impregnated by the Holy Spirit doesn't happen every day. In effect, Mary was raped by a ghost.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Agreed
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
He is the Son of God
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
I keep 1 for also gMark because Jesus is here an adopted Son of God (at least). But that could be easily a 1/2.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather to kill him, but
King Herod killed the Bethlehem baby boys to try to kill him.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Agreed
7. He is spirited away, and
His (step-)parents flee to Egypt with him
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
Agreed
8. Reared by foster-parents in a far country.
They raise him in Egypt, though Mary is his mother and Joseph his (step)father.
Mt: 1/2
Mk: 0
The flight to Egypt plus Joseph choosing Galilee as his new home make me keep a 1 for gMatthew.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
He showed great learning in the Jerusalem Temple
Mt: 1
Mk: 1
Agreed
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
He leaves his family and goes into the desert.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
When reaching manhood, Jesus is not said to return to his kingdom, not even have a kingdom to return to.
I disagree. He goes into the desert (not his kingdom) well after he reached manhood (according to gMatthew).
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
He successfully resists the Devil's temptations, and the Devil slinks away in shame.
Mt: 1
Mk: 0
gMatthew says the Devil left after Jesus resisted his temptation. No "slinks away in shame". That's it. However point taken. I give now 1/2 for gMatthew.
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
He has no known Significant Other. Mary Magdalene, often speculated to be his SO, was an undistinguished commoner.
All four: 0
Agreed. Later speculations about Mary Magdalene being married to Jesus should not be considered when scoring according to gMark or gMatthew: it is not in these gospels.
13. And becomes king.
He becomes a great religious leader, and he even calls himself King of the Jews.
All four: 1
Never Jesus calls himself King of the Jews. He let Pilate and others call him King.
However the list I have says hailed king. So I have a 1 for both gospels.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
He preaches, he gets into arguments with Pharisees, and he works various miracles, but most of his career is not very dramatic.
All four: 1
The earthly human Jesus never reigns in gMark or gMatthew. Furthermore, his public life (his reign?) is very eventful according to the gospels. So it has to be a Zero for both.
15. Prescribes laws, but
His teachings are sort of like laws, and he address actual laws in some of them.
All four: 1
Agreed with reservation. But I still keep my 1's for both gospels.
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
After his triumphant entrance into Jerusalem, both the people of that city and the Jewish leaders there turn against him. They charge him with blasphemy for calling himself the Messiah and the King of the Jews, and in Matthew, the people form a lynch mob.
All four: 1
Agreed, with reservation. But still I keep a 1 for both.
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
He is put on trial, Peter disowns him, and Peter and his other disciples flee.
All four: 1
Disagree. Jesus had no throne to be driven off, and "Mark" & "Matthew" did not indicate the crucufixion was outside Jerusalem.
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
He dies after only three hours of crucifixion, which is unusually fast for a young man in good enough health to do a lot of walking. There were also earthquakes, a mysterious darkening, and corpses taking walks from their tombs.
All four: 1
You have a good point here. I change my two zeros to 1.
19. Often at the top of a hill,
Golgotha, "Skull Hill"
All four: 1
Actually, Golgotha means place of a skull: no hill here. OK, that may have been a small rocky mound, but still not a hill.
I reduce my 1's to 1/2's on that point.
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
Despite certain extracanonical speculations, he is childless.
All four: 1
There was nothing to succeed: Jesus was never a ruling king on earth. And of course he had no children.
I keep my zeros.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
He was buried in a tomb, but he did not stay buried. He got resurrected and he departed from it.
All four: 1
I answered the same for "His body turns up missing". Why did you change the wording and shuffle other points? Very confusing.
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
He has one in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, though this is later than the Gospels.
All four: 1
Ya, as you said, that came after the canonical gospels were written. Furthermore, with the tomb becoming empty, the sepulcher was gone. So I still keep a zero for both.

So now my count is 8 for gMark and 13.5 for gMatthew.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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