Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile

[Bernard Muller]

I will ask again. How are you using the rating system? Are you just randomly assigning numbers or what?

Who are you talking to?

Cordially, Bernard

[The Crow]

I will ask again. How are you using the rating system? Are you just randomly assigning numbers or what?

Who are you talking to?

Cordially, Bernard

Sorry should have indicated that. Can you answer? How are you determining the weight factor?

[Bernard Muller]

to Crow,
Here I explained why I differ with Ipetrich's score for rating Jesus according to gMark and according to gMatthew.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=718#p14868
Consult the beginning of that thread for Ipetrich's rating and my initial one.

Cordially, Bernard

[The Crow]

to Crow,
Here I explained why I differ with Ipetrich's score for rating Jesus according to gMark and according to gMatthew.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=718#p14868
Consult the beginning of that thread for Ipetrich's rating and my initial one.

Cordially, Bernard

Thanks Bernard appreciate it.

[andrewcriddle]

I regard Lord Raglan's list as biased to increase parallels to Jesus.

It does not include criteria such as luridly disfunctional family life (Oedipus Theseus Jason etc) which are frequently found in the accounts of clearly mythical heroes.

Andrew Criddle

[neilgodfrey]

Lord Raglan wrote about his profile in his book The Hero, and gave some details about how he evaluated several heroes. His profile:
1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Raglan's explanation for these tropes was that the mythical tales in which they appeared were always connected with rituals of some sort. The list of tropes can be divided into three basic areas of the life-cycle of the hero: birth, initiation into some responsibility, and death.

Thus childhood experiences are omitted -- they play no part in representing rites that are the basis of the mythical tales.

I think this is potentially more interesting than just seeing how many tropes can be compared with Jesus. Several scholars who have written about the Gospel of Mark have commented on the way the narrative at key points epitomizes Christian rituals -- notably baptism and the eucharist.

What might be an interesting exercise is to compare the narrative/s of Jesus against Raglan's list from the perspective of Christian rituals -- baptism, receipt of holy spirit, eucharist fellowship (entering in the death of Jesus -- especially if the readership was facing persecution). . . .

At the same time the Gospel of Mark may not be a very suitable narrative to work from for this purpose since other gospels, especially Luke (and Matthew), and even John in some ways, depict a Jesus who is more like a human character in a plot. Mark's Jesus reads more like a cipher in a parable I think.

Was anointing and healing the sick also a ritual?

[toejam]

I regard Lord Raglan's list as biased to increase parallels to Jesus.

It does not include criteria such as luridly disfunctional family life (Oedipus Theseus Jason etc) which are frequently found in the accounts of clearly mythical heroes.

Andrew Criddle

I think you're right. There are a stack of other cliche "hero" attributes that aren't included and a few that seem a bit forced. Were cliche hero attributes and tales assigned to Jesus in the gospel narratives? Of course! Does this mean much for the question of historicity vs. mythicism? Not really IMO.

[theomise]

Does Carrier regard John the Baptist as (likely) historical, or mythical? How does he rank on the Raglan scale?

Or Peter and Paul, for that matter. Seems like a good number of Christian figures eventually get the 'hero' treatment if you include later apocrypha, etc.

[lpetrich]

I regard Lord Raglan's list as biased to increase parallels to Jesus.

It does not include criteria such as luridly disfunctional family life (Oedipus Theseus Jason etc) which are frequently found in the accounts of clearly mythical heroes.

Andrew Criddle

I think you're right. There are a stack of other cliche "hero" attributes that aren't included and a few that seem a bit forced. Were cliche hero attributes and tales assigned to Jesus in the gospel narratives? Of course! Does this mean much for the question of historicity vs. mythicism? Not really IMO.

Why not list such attributes?

[lpetrich]

There are various other hero scales.

G.S. Kirk has studied Greek mythology, and he finds these common tropes in it.

1. Tricks, riddles, ingenious solutions to dilemmas: to disguise or unmask, catch a thief or adulterer, win a contest, delay pursuit, etc.
2. Transformations of individuals into birds, trees, animals, snakes, stars, as a punishment, or avoidance of an impasse; of women to evade amorous attention; of deities into humans, temporarily.
3. Accidental killing of a relative, lover or friend often followed by flight to avoid vengeance or obtain purification (Laius by Oedipus, Aegeus by Theseus, Megara by Heracles, Actaeon by his dogs, etc.).
4. Giants, monsters, snakes as opponents of gods, guardians of treasures, ravagers to be destroyed by a hero: occasionally friendly (e.g., the Hecatonchires, some Cyclopes, some Centaurs); sometimes of mixed animal and human shape (Sphinx, Minotaur, Centaurs, Satyrs).
5. Attempts to get rid of a rival by setting impossible and dangerous tasks.
6. Fulfilling a task or quest, sometimes with the help of a god or girl: killing a monster; gaining an inaccessible object; freeing (and sometimes marrying) a princess.
7. Contests for a bride, for kingship, for honor.
8. Punishment for impiety, for attempting a goddess, for boasting that one surpasses a deity, etc.
9. Displacement of parents or elders: actual or feared displacement, often in accordance with an oracle.
10. Killing, or attempting to kill, one's own child by exposure to avoid displacement, or by accident, or to appease a deity; often in accordance with an oracle or prophecy.
11. Revenge by killing or seducing a man's wife or murdering his children.
12. Sons avenge mother or protect her against an oppressor.
13. Disputes within the family: sons fight each other; children oppressed by stepmother.
14. Deceitful wife, vainly in love with young man, accuses him of rape.
15. Deceitful daughter, in love with father's enemy, betrays father and is punished for the betrayal.
16. Incestuous relationships.
17. Founding a city in accordance with an oracle, by following a certain animal or by other tokens.
18. Special weapons needed to overthrow a particular enemy, cure a wound, etc.
19. Prophets and seers understand language of animals, propound riddles, cure childlessness, reveal way out of impasse.
20. Mortal lovers of goddesses and mistresses of gods.
21. Perils of immortality as a gift to men: danger of infinite old age, if youthfulness is not specified.
22. External soul or life-token: the life of a hero depends on a hair, a firebrand, etc.
23. Unusual births from the head or thigh of Zeus, from mother at point of death, by castrating father, etc.
24. Enclosure or imprisonment in a chest, jar, or tomb.

One can find several of these in the Bible, and Jesus Christ fits some of them.

G.S. Kirk has written has written:

• Myth: Its Meaning and Functions in Ancient and Other Cultures (Sather Classical Lectures), 1970
• The Nature of Greek Myths, 1975