Re: A NEW APPROACH TO AN OLD PROBLEM
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:15 pm
Did Bernard just try to hype his rep by posting testimonials to his work from random internet strangers?
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
===================maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:44 amSadly, for him, he did.perseusomega9 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:15 pm Did Bernard just try to hype his rep by posting testimonials to his work from random internet strangers?
Reading the gospel story into Josephus is simply putting one interpretation on top of another interpretation. As the gospel writers have written their Jesus story with illusions to OT stories - so, likewise, Josephus has written his Herodian history with illusions, reflections, of Hasmonean history.
Thomas Brodie (Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus) has done the spadework for how OT stories are reflected in the NT. So - what's needed now is for scholars, like Greg Doudna, and James McLaren, to concentrate on how Josephus has used Hasmonean history in his 'inspired historiography'.
Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis by Robert Karl Gnuse.
As a priest Josephus is a custodian of his people’s traditions, and by continuing that history in the Jewish War and subsequently by rewriting it in his Antiquities, he is a prophet. For Josephus prophets and historians preserve the past and predict the future, and he has picked up the mantle of creating prophetic writings. Perhaps, in his own mind he is the first since the canonical prophets to generate inspired historiography....
It is evident that the narrative of events contained in Josephus's texts should not be taken at face value. The interpretative framework as outlined indicates that to distinguish between the comments and the narration of events is not possible. It is not simply a matter of dismissing Josephus's interpretations, nor a matter of working out which version of an event is accurate. The interpretative process is more fundamental: it controls the entire choice of subject matter and, therefore, the overall picture that is being conveyed. We must now contend with the possibility that although we can make conclusions and observations regarding what Josephus narrates, what we can conclude is, in itself, the product of an interpretation. In other words, the picture being used to understand the first century CE in Judaea may not necessarily provide the reader with a 'full' or 'balanced' representation of what was happening in the territory. In effect, our major resource for examining the period is itself a constructed picture.
James S. McLaren: Turbulent Times ? Josephus and Scholarship on Judaea in the First Century CE. page 67.
Negotiating Diaspora: Jewish Strategies in the Roman Empire
edited by John M.G. Barclay
Constructing Judaean History in the Diaspora. Josephus’s Account of Judas.
James McLaren
This study shows that we can no longer assume that this Judas presented by Josephus is an historical figure who engaged in some activity in 6 CE. It is not simply a case of claiming that Josephus may have exaggerated the account of Judas’s career and its impact by adjusting a few details here and there. Rather, Josephus’s apologetic has constructed Judas, making him a vital part of the explanation of what happened in Judaea in 66-70 CE. Who he was, what he did and what he advocated, if anything at all, need to be established afresh, outside the framework provided in War and Antiquities. (108:)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9 ... n&f=false
The gospel Jesus story, to a certain extent, can be liked to the OT Adam and Eve story i.e. it's an origin story clouded with mythology, symbolism, theology and philosophy. Like the Adam and Eve story, the gospel story stood as an accurate account of how Christianity developed. Eventually, the Adam and Eve story had to give way to science, to an evolutionary account of how humans developed. Likewise, the gospel origin story will have to give way to history, to an account of how humans, in this case, the Hasmoneans, lived their lives within a political sphere.
Hence my interest in going after Josephus. While debating issues of NT theology, how it's ideas developed, is a worthwhile endeavour, it can't open a road forward. Debating, for example Marx, one needs to grasp the political and environmental conditions that led him to his political theories. Likewise, if early christian origins is ones goal, then grappling with Hasmonean history has to become part of that endeavour - which requires that Josephus be, as it were, put into the dock. Not to condemn but for an explanation.
Thanks for the clarification.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:52 am I'm arguing here for a possible position that I do not regard as probable.
However, I'll try and clarify my earlier post.
The core Gospel narrative connection between John the Baptist and Jesus is that John starts baptizing, Jesus is baptized by John, John is arrested, Jesus starts his own ministry. According to Mark Herod did not intend to kill John when he arrested him but was later manipulated into doing so. If so the death of John could occur a number of years after his arrest.
The only structural role of the death of John (as distinct from his arrest) is to introduce the idea of Jesus as John come back, which may be Markan invention (or probably better, invention by Mark's source). It is central to the Gospel narrative that John is arrested well before the death of Jesus but rather peripheral whether he is executed before or after Jesus.
Andrew Criddle
I doubt whether the idea that Jesus was John the Baptist come back was invented by Mark but all the Gospel references to this idea appear dependent upon Mark.maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:15 amThanks for the clarification.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:52 am I'm arguing here for a possible position that I do not regard as probable.
However, I'll try and clarify my earlier post.
The core Gospel narrative connection between John the Baptist and Jesus is that John starts baptizing, Jesus is baptized by John, John is arrested, Jesus starts his own ministry. According to Mark Herod did not intend to kill John when he arrested him but was later manipulated into doing so. If so the death of John could occur a number of years after his arrest.
The only structural role of the death of John (as distinct from his arrest) is to introduce the idea of Jesus as John come back, which may be Markan invention (or probably better, invention by Mark's source). It is central to the Gospel narrative that John is arrested well before the death of Jesus but rather peripheral whether he is executed before or after Jesus.
Andrew Criddle
I'm not so sure about that re ''rather peripheral whether he was executed before or after Jesus.''
Beheading of John the Baptist
Mark ch.6
14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus' name had become known. Some were saying, "John the baptizer has been raised from the dead; and for this reason these powers are at work in him." 15 But others said, "It is Elijah." And others said, "It is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised."
17 For Herod himself had sent men who arrested John, bound him, and put him in prison on account of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because Herod had married her. 18 For John had been telling Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him, and wanted to kill him. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he protected him. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed; and yet he liked to listen to him. 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his courtiers and officers and for the leaders of Galilee. 22 When his daughter Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it." 23 And he solemnly swore to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you, even half of my kingdom." 24 She went out and said to her mother, "What should I ask for?" She replied, "The head of John the baptizer." 25 Immediately she rushed back to the king and requested, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 The king was deeply grieed; yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he did not want to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent a soldier of the guard with orders to bring John's head. He went and beheaded him in the prison, 28 brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl. Then the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about it, they came and took his body, and laid it in a tomb.
Surely, if Herod is thinking that Jesus is 'John, whom I beheaded, has been raised'........then re the gospel of Mark, John the Baptist has been beheaded prior to the Jesus crucifixion.
Are you suggesting that this passage in Mark is an interpolation?
Nice try Andrew - but no cigar.....
Matthew ch. 14
] So John was beheaded in the prison, 11 and his head was brought on a tray and given to the girl, who took it to her mother. 12 Later, John’s disciples came for his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus what had happened.
13 As soon as Jesus heard the news, he left in a boat to a remote area to be alone. But the crowds heard where he was headed and followed on foot from many towns.
Andrew Criddleand many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true."
Yep, lots of contradictory sayings in the gospels - but that's par for the course when theology gets top billing. However, logic, re the gospel storyline, requires that the Jesus crucifixion is after the beheading of John. John, the forerunning, has done his job - no reason to keep him around. It would make no sense to keep John around after the Jesus crucifixion: ''He must increase, but I must decrease."''(John ch.3). Jesus, a failed - whatever - dead on a cross - plenty there for a surviving John the Baptist to rally his own troops, disciples, to further his own aims - back to the Jordan if needs be......andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 amI doubt whether the idea that Jesus was John the Baptist come back was invented by Mark but all the Gospel references to this idea appear dependent upon Mark.maryhelena wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:15 amThanks for the clarification.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:52 am I'm arguing here for a possible position that I do not regard as probable.
However, I'll try and clarify my earlier post.
The core Gospel narrative connection between John the Baptist and Jesus is that John starts baptizing, Jesus is baptized by John, John is arrested, Jesus starts his own ministry. According to Mark Herod did not intend to kill John when he arrested him but was later manipulated into doing so. If so the death of John could occur a number of years after his arrest.
The only structural role of the death of John (as distinct from his arrest) is to introduce the idea of Jesus as John come back, which may be Markan invention (or probably better, invention by Mark's source). It is central to the Gospel narrative that John is arrested well before the death of Jesus but rather peripheral whether he is executed before or after Jesus.
Andrew Criddle
I'm not so sure about that re ''rather peripheral whether he was executed before or after Jesus.''
Beheading of John the Baptist
Mark ch.6
14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus' name had become known. Some were saying, "John the baptizer has been raised from the dead; and for this reason these powers are at work in him." 15 But others said, "It is Elijah." And others said, "It is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised."
17 For Herod himself had sent men who arrested John, bound him, and put him in prison on account of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because Herod had married her. 18 For John had been telling Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him, and wanted to kill him. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he protected him. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed; and yet he liked to listen to him. 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his courtiers and officers and for the leaders of Galilee. 22 When his daughter Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it." 23 And he solemnly swore to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you, even half of my kingdom." 24 She went out and said to her mother, "What should I ask for?" She replied, "The head of John the baptizer." 25 Immediately she rushed back to the king and requested, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 The king was deeply grieed; yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he did not want to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent a soldier of the guard with orders to bring John's head. He went and beheaded him in the prison, 28 brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl. Then the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about it, they came and took his body, and laid it in a tomb.
Surely, if Herod is thinking that Jesus is 'John, whom I beheaded, has been raised'........then re the gospel of Mark, John the Baptist has been beheaded prior to the Jesus crucifixion.
Are you suggesting that this passage in Mark is an interpolation?
Nice try Andrew - but no cigar.....
Matthew ch. 14
] So John was beheaded in the prison, 11 and his head was brought on a tray and given to the girl, who took it to her mother. 12 Later, John’s disciples came for his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus what had happened.
13 As soon as Jesus heard the news, he left in a boat to a remote area to be alone. But the crowds heard where he was headed and followed on foot from many towns.
It is a rather odd claim (Jesus works miracles because he is John returned) and we have no other reference implying that John worked miracles and a claim in John 10:41 that he did not.Andrew Criddleand many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true."
But certainly not before 33/34 CE:According to Mark Herod did not intend to kill John when he arrested him but was later manipulated into doing so. If so the death of John could occur a number of years after his arrest.
I think you are on thin ice about this 19 CE.The idea that John must have died after Jesus’ execution has been advocated by Robert Eisler (1882–1949), an ingenious but eccentric scholar, whose theories cannot but seem idiosyncratic today. Relying heavily on the Slavonic version of Josephus’ Jewish War Eisler claimed that Pilate’s office in Judea began as early as 19 CE, that Jesus was acclaimed the king of the Jews in 21 CE and was crucified the same year after his army lost a battle against the Roman troops of Pontius Pilate.
Eisler’s theories were heavily criticized and generally rejected by his contemporaries: nevertheless, we shall attempt to show that his intuitions were basically correct concerning the relative chronology of Jesus’ crucifixion and John’s beheading.
Here is what Josephus wrote, according to the translation that Visi used:sequence of events
1. John gathered many followers around himself teaching them good morals.
2. Herod Antipas feared that the mob that gathered around John would eventually initiate a rebellion. (Josephus does not indicate that Herod had anything personal against John, nor that John criticized his unorthodox marriage.)
3. So John was arrested and executed in the fortress of Machaerus.
4. Soon after a war broke out between Herod and the Nabatean king, Aretas. Herod’s army was defeated and almost completely annihilated.
5. Many Jews of Herod’s realm believed that the military disaster was a divine punishment for the execution of John the Baptist.
So Aretas started his quarrel with Antipas right before Herodias and Antipas married; then Visi assumed: soon after, Aretas & Antipas were at war and again soon after, the battle took place. And around the time of the battle, John the Baptist was arrested, sent as a prisoner to Macherus and executed soon after.So she speedily reached her father and told him what Herod planned to do. Aretas made this the start of a quarrel. There was also a dispute about boundaries in the district of Gabalis. Troops were mustered on each side and they were now at war,