May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stuart
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Stuart » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:38 pm

issemm,

Joseph DL sums up the literal reading of the passage well. But we are probably not looking at a real confrontation of Paul and Cephas (Peter), nor of people from James, but rather a fictional confrontation of the patron saints of three sects. A posthumous confrontation if you will. [1]

Paul, basically is seen as the heretics patron saint, especially Marcionites, while Peter/Cephas the patron saint of the proto-Orthodox, and James came to be associated with even more strict sects such as the Ebionites. These legendary figures thus become literary stand ins for fiction direct interactions, never mind that any real actors whom these characters represent may have very likely been from different eras and different locales never crossing paths. What is more the positions they represent in literature likely are a reflection of polemics at the time of the writings and nothing to do with the legendary saints themselves. Keep this in mind.

We are also dealing with hyperbole. The positions of Paul represent those of the author and his sect, but he is presenting them and ridiculing the positions of his opponents. In the case of Cephas, his positions --or rather those of the sect he is stand in for-- are probably aligned with the gospel of Matthew, likely Noahic on dietary matters, but are presented reductio ad absurdum by the author of Galatians. After all when you write the book, your opponents never really get to argue back on even terms, so you pick the parts you can smash.

As the incident is fictional, and Galatians probably written in Asia Minor by people who never set foot in Syria-Palestine concerning sectarian matters of the local region merely projected on the patron saints of long prior era, we can say Cephas doesn't actually force anyone to do anything, except that is in this fictional incident.

Notes:
[1] e.g., https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/McGuireClash.pdf
Last edited by Stuart on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:59 am

Basically all of that, Stuart, but I tend to see in the confrontation a kernel of history. Peregrinus was excommunicated by the Community (Jewish in their stance on dietary habits) for eating unkoshar meat offered to a pagan god.
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Giuseppe
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:38 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:59 am
Peregrinus was excommunicated by the Community (Jewish in their stance on dietary habits) for eating unkoshar meat offered to a pagan god.
Not coincidentially, Peregrinus - docet Detering - is another name for the true author behind Galatians, according to Stuart: Marcion.

I think that it would be interesting and instructive, for you Joseph D.L., to know why Marcion was called Peregrinus:

It’s odd that of all people HARNACK, the great specialist on Marcion, who gave his well-known book about the famous heretic of the 2nd century the subtitle „The Gospel of the Stranger [my emphasis] God”, in his article ‘Peregrin’ in RE3 managed to overlook completely the fact that here a 2nd century Christian bore a name which he himself had found out to be the central theological term with Marcion. The God Marcion preached is none other than the Stranger God, or simply the Stranger, described in the Latin language either as extraneus or alienus or quite often, and this especially in the Latin translations of the works of Ephraem Syrus, as peregrinus ( syr. nwkry' = strange) 13. I shall not enumerate the theological specifics of Marcion’s doctrine about the Stranger God and the many passages quoted by HARNACK.
Instead I shall quote those sentences in HARNACK’s book where the author quite rightly describes the doctrine of the Stranger as quintessence and specific element of Marcionite theology and Christology and where he, at the same time, gives the valuable hint that in the Marcionite Church the term „Stranger” could be used not only for the „Good God” himself but for his followers as well.

And read read: :eh:

Lucian’s Peregrinus Proteus is a Marcionite Christian, who not only fostered his Marcionite faith in the existence of the „Good” i.e. the „Stranger God” (set apart from the evil Demiurge) in his heart, but also testified to it by his name.

(my bold)


Stranger God as set apart from the evil Demiurge :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

Please Joseph D.L. take back your words "Basically all of that, Stuart", before it's too late :cheers:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Stuart » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 pm

Joseph,

I see no kernel, rather some common tropes with popular stories of the day. Peregrinus Proteus is a fiction build from fictions.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:03 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:38 am

Not coincidentially, Peregrinus - docet Detering - is another name for the true author behind Galatians, according to Stuart: Marcion.

I think that it would be interesting and instructive, for you Joseph D.L., to know why Marcion was called Peregrinus
Why should I care what Detering thinks? I don't have the same sycophantic need to appeal to others that you do. And if you'd been paying attention and not caught up in your own self absorbed world you would know that I believed Marcion was Peregrinus for years, even long before I even heard of Detering was.

Hell, I still concede that what is known about Marcion and what Lucian writes about Peregrinus matches almost perfectly.

Be that as it may, I no longer think Peregrinus and Marcion are the same--or rather, I think the mechanisms at work are more subtle than I once thought.

The only possibilities are:
  • If Peregrinus is Marcion, then Marcion and Paul are two separate individuals, meaning Marcion did not write Galatians
or:
  • Marcion and Paul are the same, and Cephas is Peregrinus
The more convincing figure to equate Marcion with is Aquila of Sinope, and here we actually have a motive for Marcionism, that being to impose Hadrian's authority onto Jews. Peregrinus may have been a follower of Aquila (Galatians seems to say as much), so he would still have been a "Marcionite" . But as far as them being the same, I no longer can oblige that.

Please Joseph D.L. take back your words "Basically all of that, Stuart", before it's too late :cheers:
How about you go fuck yourself, Giuseppe?
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:05 am

Stuart wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 pm
Joseph,

I see no kernel, rather some common tropes with popular stories of the day.
Can you give some examples?
Peregrinus Proteus is a fiction build from fictions.
Lucian's account is satire so to take it at face value is ridicules. Peregrinus himself is not a fiction.
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Giuseppe
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:17 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:03 am
Why should I care what Detering thinks? I don't have the same sycophantic need to appeal to others that you do.
It depend by who are the 'others'. Detering deserves great attention. I don't share his views on Paul as fabricated, but only because in my view an original Paul is a formidable witness against the historicity of Jesus.

For me, it is impossible to assume a fabricated Paul independently from what the Radical Critics and Detering think about Marcion: that he hated YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Stuart » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:19 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:05 am
Stuart wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 pm
Joseph,

I see no kernel, rather some common tropes with popular stories of the day.
Can you give some examples?
Peregrinus Proteus is a fiction build from fictions.
Lucian's account is satire so to take it at face value is ridicules. Peregrinus himself is not a fiction.
Let's modernize your claim to the 18th century. ‎What you are saying is like saying Voltaire's Candide is satire, but the character Candide is a real person.

How do you distinguish between say Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer movie, where it's a fantasy romp but many of the characters drawn from real people in history, even though everything about them is fake and made up, and Van Helsing, another Vampire slayer period piece where the main character is entirely fiction.

To say the name is merely changed from that of real person is like JK Rowling admitting that the character of Gilderoy Lockhart is based on a particular overly self important person she knew, mind you infused with additional personality elements, but that doesn't change the fundamentals; the person is entirely fictional character doing things the person it satirizes did not ever do.

I stand by my statement. Peregrinus Proteus is nothing more than character of fiction.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 pm

Peregrinus is witnessed by Aulus Gellius, and Tatian and Athenagoras write about him as well.


Oh I know. All of these are just forged writings from the third and fourth centuries.

Whatever you say, jefe.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Stuart » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:08 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 pm
Peregrinus is witnessed by Aulus Gellius, and Tatian and Athenagoras write about him as well.


Oh I know. All of these are just forged writings from the third and fourth centuries.

Whatever you say, jefe.
Aulus Gellius is a witness to a philosopher of that name. Tatian and Tertullian appear to have drawn their brief remarks from Lucian's satire, as certainly does Ammianus Marcellinus, all using the well known story as an example of things not to do -- these are witnesses to Lucians satire not new sources of information.

Note: Tertullian is 3rd century, Ammianus well into the 4th century, Tatian is probably the end of the 2nd century to early 3rd century -- assuming these are the original hands and not a bit later in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Forgery is not a term I would use, rather compendium of multiple writers material. Stephen Huller (Secret Alias) argues that Tertullian writes commentary on earlier works, to which I would add that that if that is the case the pseudo autobiographical material in the compendium is then no more reliable than that of aporcyphal acts or the NT letters. But I see that as the nature of the works, not some faker. The book of Isaiah and Job are similar compendiums, although more along the lines of Hebrews. All this is merely nuanced background information. For the issue of the genuineness of Pergrinus it is immaterial whether these were written in say 190 or 220 or even 350 CE, as the usage by these witnesses betrays their source as Lucius' satire.

Aulus Gellius appears to be the only independent witness and he provides only a saying and brief description of his lifestyle. It is nothing like the wild Candide type satire of Lucius.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... 2*.html#11

It seems the satire is as reliable about the real person as JK Rowling's Gilderoy Lockhart was of the person it was loosely based off of. Wild stories from a variety of people, some no doubt with some truth and others made up out of whole clothe, all rolled into the unfortunate person who was chosen for the starring role. It's a Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer story. But hey it's a good romp, and fiction becomes history.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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