May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:00 pm

Aulus Gellius actually knew and conversed with Peregrinus while he was in Athens. That alone--unless you want to say Aulus Gellius's book is a forgery--is proof against your claim that Peregrinus is a fiction. Athenagoras isn't relying on Lucian, and writes that there ware statues of Peregrinus at Parium. That's strike two against you.

Also, I never said Lucian's account is accurate or supposed to be a detailed biography. He is writing satire, meaning what he says is exaggerated for comedic effect. Does that automatically render it useless? No, it doesn't. Lucian, for his part, used Peregrinus's death in another one of his books unrelated to Peregrinus himself, meaning that Peregrinus was a real figure of at least some notoriety.

Everything else you say is bullshit.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:01 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:00 pm
Aulus Gellius actually knew and conversed with Peregrinus while he was in Athens. That alone--unless you want to say Aulus Gellius's book is a forgery--is proof against your claim that Peregrinus is a fiction. Athenagoras isn't relying on Lucian, and writes that there ware statues of Peregrinus at Parium. That's strike two against you.

Also, I never said Lucian's account is accurate or supposed to be a detailed biography. He is writing satire, meaning what he says is exaggerated for comedic effect. Does that automatically render it useless? No, it doesn't. Lucian, for his part, used Peregrinus's death in another one of his books unrelated to Peregrinus himself, meaning that Peregrinus was a real figure of at least some notoriety.

Everything else you say is bullshit.
I agree that Peregrinus is a basically historical figure. What is less clear is whether there is any historical basis for the claim by Lucian that Peregrinus was at one time associated with Christians. Lucian may wish to represent Peregrinus as wandering from one weird cult to another whether or not this is actually true.

Andrew Criddle

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Secret Alias
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:18 am

Why is it more believable that Peregrinus was never a Christian than Peregrinus was wholly made up? I see them as equally likely.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:07 pm

andrewcriddle wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:01 am

I agree that Peregrinus is a basically historical figure. What is less clear is whether there is any historical basis for the claim by Lucian that Peregrinus was at one time associated with Christians. Lucian may wish to represent Peregrinus as wandering from one weird cult to another whether or not this is actually true.

Andrew Criddle
I don't see a reason to dismiss him as utter fiction, though.

As an aside, I think Peregrinus was associated with Jews rather than Christians proper. But that's just me.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by andrewcriddle » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:19 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:18 am
Why is it more believable that Peregrinus was never a Christian than Peregrinus was wholly made up? I see them as equally likely.
We have other evidence for the existence of Peregrinus e.g. Aulus Gellius, Lucian is our only source for the association of Peregrinus with the Christians.

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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:29 pm

But isn't the problem our inherited notion that a Christian couldn't be a philosopher? That might be why we divide Origen into two people.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

perseusomega9
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by perseusomega9 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:14 pm

Which 2nd century christians is he allegedly associated with? But he's also written very recent scriptural texts for them (the same christians?)
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:37 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:14 pm
Which 2nd century christians is he allegedly associated with? But he's also written very recent scriptural texts for them (the same christians?)
My own opinion is that he was associated with the proto-Nazarenes. Parvus believes/believed that it was the Apellean Christians, and Detering believed that he was Marcion in the flesh.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:10 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:29 pm
But isn't the problem our inherited notion that a Christian couldn't be a philosopher? That might be why we divide Origen into two people.
I think Christians were seen as philosophers early on, as they had a penchant for Hellenism and Platonic philosophy (Justin, Athenagoras, Clement and Origen being just a few examples). Also, if the Talmud is anything to go off of, those who used the Gospel-- the Gilyonim--were called philosophers.
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Re: May I ask you a rudimentary question?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:18 pm

Of course they were. I was talking about the perception of people living in the last 1000 years.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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