Raschke's argument for John the Baptist Passage interpolated in Josephus

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Giuseppe
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Raschke's argument for John the Baptist Passage interpolated in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:51 am

In the preceding paragraph it is said that Herod Antipas went to Rome:

One article of this marriage also was this, that he should divorce Aretas’s daughter. So Antipas, when he had made this agreement, sailed to Rome. But when he had done there the business he went about, and was returned again; his wife having discovered the agreement he had made with Herodias, and having learned it before he had notice of her knowledge of the whole design; she desired him to send her to Macherus...

...and Raschke argues that Antipas could not return from Rome to Jerusalem by the time, according to the interpolation, John was put to death. Too much time was necessary to give the due attention to the threat represented by John the Baptist.

Did Herod order his death while he was still in voyage? Improbable.

Therefore the authenticity of the passage requires that John was killed much time before the return of Herod from Rome. The flash-back theory, in short.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Raschke's argument for John the Baptist Passage interpolated in Josephus

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:24 pm

Note, please:

I agree generally to the Interpolation charge. The problem is to figure the Story once you filter out the Interpolation:

Matthew 11: 11 (Moffatt):

[11] I tell you truly, no one has arisen among the sons of women who is greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the Realm of heaven is greater than he is.

The least in the "Realm of Heaven" is greater than John because John is dead.

Ecclesiastes 9: 4 (RSV):

[4] But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

The dead know nothing. This leads to the VERY curious "Correction" found in John:
John 1:

[19] And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
***
[20] He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

Interesting language. He CONFESSED... This John is facing torture and is probably being beaten. Is this the same "John" as in Mark? I'm not so sure. There ARE two Stories that have been telescoped into one. Which Story does this belong to?
***
[21] And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."
[22] They said to him then, "Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"
[23] He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, `Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."

Denial and more Denial. As if, "Why are you torturing me?" I'M NOT THE GUY YOU ARE LOOKING FOR..."
***
[24] Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.

Who "THEY"?
***
[25] They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
[26] John answered them, "I baptize with water; but among you stands one whom you do not know,
[27] even he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
[28] This took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

This IS Interpolation since "Baptizing" has nothing to do with the Temple Worship in Jerusalem. 1 Chronicles 24 covers this "Approved" Worship.
***
[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'

The Original Story continues with a very Semitic Statement: Behold the "Lamb-of-God". This is PRIESTLY and not savior-god material.

The Tension between the Synoptics and John Manifests itself right here.

CW

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Giuseppe
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Re: Raschke's argument for John the Baptist Passage interpolated in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:24 pm

Charles Wilson wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:24 pm
Note, please:

I agree generally to the Interpolation charge.
simple agreement doesn't suffice. I want to know why precisely you think that the Baptist Passage is an interpolation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Raschke's argument for John the Baptist Passage interpolated in Josephus

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:42 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:24 pm
Charles Wilson wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:24 pm

I agree generally to the Interpolation charge.
simple agreement doesn't suffice. I want to know why precisely you think that the Baptist Passage is an interpolation.
The Time Line and the Statements give a completely different STORY to John. As I said:
I agree generally to the Interpolation charge. The problem is to figure the Story once you filter out the Interpolation:

Matthew 11: 11 (Moffatt):

[11] I tell you truly, no one has arisen among the sons of women who is greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the Realm of heaven is greater than he is.

The least in the "Realm of Heaven" is greater than John because John is dead.
This is the Story and I believe that this is at the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. The Passages of the child Peter saving the Priest give evidence to the event: "Enter through the Narrow Door...". "You must turn as a child to enter the Realm of heaven" (A real, physical place). The Scribes and Pharisees prevent MEN from entering the Realm of Heaven, and lest we forget:

Matthew 10: 39 - 42 (RSV):

[39] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.
[40] "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
[41] He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
[42] And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

This appears to be from the Second Story, the one at the 9 CE Passover. It is Peter, from 12 years later, looking back to 4 BCE.

One of the John Stories ends here, at the 4 BCE Passover. The story in Josephus cannot be Priestly and John was Priestly, of Bilgah.

Josephus, Antiquities..., 18, 5, 2:

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him..."

This is an interesting Indirection. "Baptism" in this passage doesn't eliminate all "Sin" but stands for the Purification of the Body. "...the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness...". I suppose that Apologetix(R) could clean this up but it is not Judaic thought. "Baptism" carries a different meaning at times and the use of "Soul" from Hasmonean Josephus doesn't sound correct.

The Time Line is all wrong, the Thought is all wrong.

Interpolation.

CW

[Edit Note:] Lest I forget, the other NT definition of "Baptism" is given in the above passage:

"...Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late..."

Compare with the Youth in the Linen Garment in Mark. Thackeray has this (at the Temple Atrocity of 4 BCE) as the Priests obtaining recruits for their faction ",...in a body of the temple". (Also, could anyone other than Priests recruit in the Temple?). The Josephan passage above cannot be correct. There was Revolution brewing at the death of Herod and the rewrites of this Violence must be rewritten to moderate that Threat.

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