Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:36 am
Does Prof. Vinzent also say something about the fact that the Gospel of Marcion did exactly the same thing and Marcion's Jesus even quoted from the Hebrew Bible? Look at Ben's fine
reconstruction of GMarcion! Attested are the wilderness, more than a prophet, the messenger, the fore-runner and the Baptizer.
About
that particular passage, neither prof Vinzent, nor Ben C. Smith are an authority for me (I consider the latter a crypto-Christian apologist insofar he disagrees with Wells on this
point).
For me, the French Mythicist
Paul-Louis Couchoud is a greater authority than themselves.
And Couchoud has fixed Marcion on that passage:
Cependant, Jean s'alarma d'entendre parler des œuvres de Christ comme si elles étaient le fait d'un autre Dieu.
Dans ce trouble, il fit demander à Christ: "Es tu celui qui doit venir ou bien devons nous en attendre un autre ? “
"Heureux, dit Christ, celui qui ne se scandalise pas à cause de moi"
Et, comme tous couraient au désert pour voir Jean au lieu de Christ, il dit:
"Qui donc êtes vous allés voir au désert ?
"C'est celui dont il est écrit: Voici, j’envoie mon messager devant ta face afin qu'il prépare ton chemin.
"Jean est certes le plus grand parmi tous ceux qui sont nés d'une femme mais il est plus petit que le plus petit dans le royaume de Dieu."
My translation:
However, John was alarmed to hear about the works of Christ as if they were the works of another God.
In this turmoil, he made ask to Christ: "Are you the one who is to come or should we expect another?"
"Happy, says Christ, is he who is not scandalized because of me"
And as all were running into the wilderness to see John instead of Christ, he said:
"Who did you go to see in the wilderness?
"This is he of whom it is written: Behold, I send my messenger before your face, that he may prepare your way.
"John is certainly the greatest among all who are born of a woman, but he is more little than the least in the kingdom of God."
Note that:
- John is not in prison, but a rival chief of a rival sect.
- the idea that John is in wilderness derives from John's claims that he was Joshua redivivus (cfr. the Josephian characters as Theudas, the Egyptian prophet, etc.) or a rival Messiah adorer of YHWH
- the tone is entirely sarcastic about John and his followers.
- the "least in the kingdom of God", i.e. Paul (Paulus=the Least) is greater than the rival John the Baptist
Therefore, that passage doesn't betray dependence on your
loved Gospel of Mark.
You are simply wrong, Kunigunde, sorry.
ADDENDA:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:36 am Marcion's Jesus even quoted from the Hebrew Bible?
He quoted the words of the evil demiurge to refer his (= of the demiurge) plans about John the Baptist. Not to reveal the intentions of the Alien God, by that quote.