Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8493
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:25 am

Note that also in Couchoud's reconstruction of the Evangelion the term "Son of Man" occurs:

He was taken to the Sanhedrin, where he was asked if he was the Messiah.
He replied, "If I tell you, you won't believe me. But soon the Son of Man will seat at the right hand of the Power of God. "
"So, they asked, are you the son of God?"
But he answered them: "It is you who say so, not me."

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8493
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:34 am

Prof Vinzent here is 1000% right:

Of course, Christian readers who are so used to the Synoptics’ accounts of John the Baptist may no longer feel this strange character of a delayed opening. In contrast, if we ask the question, could Mark have added this passage to counter one of Marcion’s challenges, the answer is readily at hand. As shown in the previous paragraph, The Gospel incorporated a passage where it dealt with John the Baptist’s attitude to Jesus Christ. Very similar to the other disciples, the twelve and the 70 – he was curious and enquired who Jesus was, but despite all the deeds of Jesus, he did not trust and believe, but took offensive at Christ. Mark disputes this characterisation of the Baptist, by portraying him as the messanger and fore-runner of Jesus who not only prepares his ways and baptizes him, but who also captures all the typically Marcionite features: asceticism, the emphasis on repentance, baptism and the remission of sins, but without the renounciation of the Jewish past!

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2011/ ... n.html?m=1

I disagree with Stuart about the fact that, if John the Baptist is not introduced specifically, then the gospel in question who only alludes to him en passant, has to be not the first. The readers knew already who was John the Baptist. Just as they knew already who were the Pillars. If this implies the historicity of the Baptist, then let it be. But my general conclusion, by now, is the following:

I am wary of any attempt of rehabilitation of John the Baptist in a Marcionite gospel, included the marcionite layer of the Fourth Gospel, pace Stuart.

Hence, as I have said, the last step to confirm definitively the marcionite priority with proto-Luke = Mcn is the meaning of Son of Man. It is clear that prof Vinzent is partially indebted to Raschke on this point but I would like to know more precisely the Vinzent's view about the deceitful use of "Son of Man" in Marcion. It is the last mystery, the last enigma.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:36 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:34 am
Prof Vinzent here is 1000% right:

Of course, Christian readers who are so used to the Synoptics’ accounts of John the Baptist may no longer feel this strange character of a delayed opening. In contrast, if we ask the question, could Mark have added this passage to counter one of Marcion’s challenges, the answer is readily at hand. As shown in the previous paragraph, The Gospel incorporated a passage where it dealt with John the Baptist’s attitude to Jesus Christ. Very similar to the other disciples, the twelve and the 70 – he was curious and enquired who Jesus was, but despite all the deeds of Jesus, he did not trust and believe, but took offensive at Christ. Mark disputes this characterisation of the Baptist, by portraying him as the messanger and fore-runner of Jesus who not only prepares his ways and baptizes him, but who also captures all the typically Marcionite features: asceticism, the emphasis on repentance, baptism and the remission of sins, but without the renounciation of the Jewish past!

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2011/ ... n.html?m=1
(bolding mine)

Does Prof. Vinzent also say something about the fact that the Gospel of Marcion did exactly the same thing and Marcion's Jesus even quoted from the Hebrew Bible? Look at Ben's fine reconstruction of GMarcion! Attested are the wilderness, more than a prophet, the messenger, the fore-runner and the Baptizer.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:11 pm
...

Luke 7.18-35, the inquiry of John the baptist.

18 Καὶ ἀπήγγειλαν Ἰωάνει οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ περὶ πάντων τούτων. καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος δύο τινὰς τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ ὁ Ἰωάνης 19 ἔπεμψεν πρὸς τὸν Κύριον λέγων Σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἄλλον προσδοκῶμεν; 20 παραγενόμενοι δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν οἱ ἄνδρες εἶπαν Ἰωάνης ὁ Βαπτιστὴς ἀπέστειλεν ἡμᾶς πρὸς σὲ λέγων Σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἄλλον προσδοκῶμεν; 21 ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ ἐθεράπευσεν πολλοὺς ἀπὸ νόσων καὶ μαστίγων καὶ πνευμάτων πονηρῶν, καὶ τυφλοῖς πολλοῖς ἐχαρίσατο βλέπειν. 22 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες ἀπαγγείλατε Ἰωάνει ἃ εἴδετε καὶ ἠκούσατε· τυφλοὶ ἀναβλέπουσιν, χωλοὶ περιπατοῦσιν, λεπροὶ καθαρίζονται, καὶ κωφοὶ ἀκούουσιν, νεκροὶ ἐγείρονται, πτωχοὶ εὐαγγελίζονται· 23 καὶ μακάριός ἐστιν ὃς ἐὰν [Marcion: οὐ] μὴ σκανδαλισθῇ ἐν ἐμοί. 24 Ἀπελθόντων δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων Ἰωάνου ἤρξατο λέγειν πρὸς τοὺς ὄχλους περὶ Ἰωάνου Τί ἐξήλθατε εἰς τὴν ἔρημον θεάσασθαι; κάλαμον ὑπὸ ἀνέμου σαλευόμενον; 25 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; ἄνθρωπον ἐν μαλακοῖς ἱματίοις ἠμφιεσμένον; ἰδοὺ οἱ ἐν ἱματισμῷ ἐνδόξῳ καὶ τρυφῇ ὑπάρχοντες ἐν τοῖς βασιλείοις εἰσίν. 26 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; προφήτην; ναί, λέγω ὑμῖν, καὶ περισσότερον προφήτου. 27 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου. 28 λέγω ὑμῖν, μείζων ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν Ἰωάνου οὐδείς ἐστιν· ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Θεοῦ μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. 29 καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἀκούσας καὶ οἱ τελῶναι ἐδικαίωσαν τὸν Θεόν, βαπτισθέντες τὸ βάπτισμα Ἰωάνου· 30 οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ νομικοὶ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἠθέτησαν εἰς ἑαυτούς, μὴ βαπτισθέντες ὑπ’ αὐτοῦ. 31 Τίνι οὖν ὁμοιώσω τοὺς ἀνθρώπους τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης, καὶ τίνι εἰσὶν ὅμοιοι; 32 ὅμοιοί εἰσιν παιδίοις τοῖς ἐν ἀγορᾷ καθημένοις καὶ προσφωνοῦσιν ἀλλήλοις ἃ λέγει Ηὐλήσαμεν ὑμῖν καὶ οὐκ ὠρχήσασθε· ἐθρηνήσαμεν καὶ οὐκ ἐκλαύσατε. 33 ἐλήλυθεν γὰρ Ἰωάνης ὁ Βαπτιστὴς μὴ ἐσθίων ἄρτον μήτε πίνων οἶνον, καὶ λέγετε Δαιμόνιον ἔχει. 34 ἐλήλυθεν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐσθίων καὶ πίνων, καὶ λέγετε Ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος φάγος καὶ οἰνοπότης, φίλος τελωνῶν καὶ ἁμαρτωλῶν. 35 καὶ ἐδικαιώθη ἡ σοφία ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν τέκνων αὐτῆς. 18 The disciples of John told him about all these things. John, in prison, calling to himself two of his disciples, 19 sent them to Jesus, saying, “Go and ask him, ‘Are you the one who is coming, or should we look for another?’” 20 When the men had come to him, they said, “John the Baptizer has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you he who comes, or should we look for another?’” 21 In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits; and to many who were blind he gave sight. 22 Jesus answered them,Go and tell John the things which you have seen and heard: that the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who finds no occasion for stumbling in me.” 24 When John’s messengers had departed, he began to tell the multitudes about John,What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously dressed, and live delicately, are in kings’ courts. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ 28 “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.” 29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they declared God to be just, having been baptized with John’s baptism. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves. 31 “To what then should I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the marketplace, and call to one another, saying, ‘We piped to you, and you didn’t dance. We mourned, and you didn’t weep.’ 33 For John the Baptizer came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man, and a drunkard; a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Wisdom is justified by all her children.”


User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8493
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:24 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:36 am
Does Prof. Vinzent also say something about the fact that the Gospel of Marcion did exactly the same thing and Marcion's Jesus even quoted from the Hebrew Bible? Look at Ben's fine reconstruction of GMarcion! Attested are the wilderness, more than a prophet, the messenger, the fore-runner and the Baptizer.
About that particular passage, neither prof Vinzent, nor Ben C. Smith are an authority for me (I consider the latter a crypto-Christian apologist insofar he disagrees with Wells on this point).

For me, the French Mythicist Paul-Louis Couchoud is a greater authority than themselves.

And Couchoud has fixed Marcion on that passage:



Cependant, Jean s'alarma d'entendre parler des œuvres de Christ comme si elles étaient le fait d'un autre Dieu.

Dans ce trouble, il fit demander à Christ: "Es tu celui qui doit venir ou bien devons nous en attendre un autre ? “
"Heureux, dit Christ, celui qui ne se scandalise pas à cause de moi"
Et, comme tous couraient au désert pour voir Jean au lieu de Christ, il dit:
"Qui donc êtes vous allés voir au désert ?
"C'est celui dont il est écrit: Voici, j’envoie mon messager devant ta face afin qu'il prépare ton chemin.

"Jean est certes le plus grand parmi tous ceux qui sont nés d'une femme mais il est plus petit que le plus petit dans le royaume de Dieu."



My translation:

However, John was alarmed to hear about the works of Christ as if they were the works of another God.

In this turmoil, he made ask to Christ: "Are you the one who is to come or should we expect another?"
"Happy, says Christ, is he who is not scandalized because of me"
And as all were running into the wilderness to see John instead of Christ, he said:
"Who did you go to see in the wilderness?
"This is he of whom it is written: Behold, I send my messenger before your face, that he may prepare your way.

"John is certainly the greatest among all who are born of a woman, but he is more little than the least in the kingdom of God."

Note that:
  • John is not in prison, but a rival chief of a rival sect.
  • the idea that John is in wilderness derives from John's claims that he was Joshua redivivus (cfr. the Josephian characters as Theudas, the Egyptian prophet, etc.) or a rival Messiah adorer of YHWH
  • the tone is entirely sarcastic about John and his followers.
  • the "least in the kingdom of God", i.e. Paul (Paulus=the Least) is greater than the rival John the Baptist
Therefore, that passage doesn't betray dependence on your loved Gospel of Mark.

You are simply wrong, Kunigunde, sorry.

ADDENDA:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:36 am
Marcion's Jesus even quoted from the Hebrew Bible?
He quoted the words of the evil demiurge to refer his (= of the demiurge) plans about John the Baptist. Not to reveal the intentions of the Alien God, by that quote.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8493
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:36 am

I should refine my views in the light of my strong awareness (100% evidence-based) that Marcion HATED John the Baptist even more than he HATED the god of the Jews.

I had praised Stuart for this:
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:34 am
Stuart is great :cheers: to have pointed out that Marcion derided John the Baptist in this passage of Luke/Matthew.
Stuart wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:40 pm
Matthew then in 24.26 in fact helps us here, with Jesus giving two examples of false prophets.
So, if they say to you, 'Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out;
if they say, 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
The first one is very obvious, John the baptizer or John the apostle / John the evangelist. Whatever the legends all seem to overlap. But the passage takes us back to Matthew 11:7-8 and Luke 17:24-25 where Jesus admonishes the crowds for going out to see John. (Robert Price counts this as part of the evidence of a rival Christ cult around John; I'm less certain, instead seeing John as a rival patron saint from another sect.) The second one we are in the Gnostic inner chambers, a theology of God's house derived I think from Jacob's ladder story, the very one referenced in John 14:2-3 -- but that's neither here nor there. The language suggests a Gnostic inner chamber for the select.
(my yellow)

I am with Robert M. Price, now, and with Paul-Louis Couchoud and especially with Robert Stahl: in Marcion, Jesus admonishes the crowds for going out to see John, because John was already connected, in a pre-Christian work (the Book of Revelation), with who preached the immolation of the divine Lamb Jesus by YHWH. So note the caustic irony of John hailing Jesus as the "Lamb of YHWH" in the marcionite Fourth Gospel: he said so because he wanted that Jesus had to be killed in name of the evil demiurge YHWH.

Note that in Revelation the Woman in fugue in the wilderness is allegory of the Church who followed John the Baptist. Hence, the link Baptist/wilderness precedes the Judaizing incipit of Mark.

In Acts, the historical nucleus of Gnostics "defeating" the followers of the Baptist was catholicized as Saint Paul converting Apollos to catholicism. Apollos ceases to be evidence of a "Gnostic John the Baptist": a such thing never existed.

Basically, Stuart is wrong to see John as a positive figure in the marcionite Fourth Gospel. John the Baptist was never loved by the Gnostics. And only the Judaizers had him as the Jewish Messiah in the Clementines.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8493
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hermann Raschke's case for the Marcionite invention of John the Baptist in proto-Mark

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:21 am

The Mandeans are probably in view here:

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

(Luke 12:10)

Hence, they were both the original followers of John the Baptist and haters of Jesus. The point is this: the only Gnostics who followed John the Baptist were haters of Jesus. You can't have a hater of YHWH who adores both the Baptist and Jesus.

The John cult was rival from the beginning to Christian cult in any latter's form. And just as the Jews co-opted John by the original layer of the Book of Revelation, so the Christian Judaizers co-opted John by making him the mere precursor of Jesus.

Marcion, even if he came later in 135 CE, had preserved the original Christian hostility a priori against John the Baptist. Whereas the Judaizers found a compromise with John. It is probable that the Judaizers found a compromise with John even before Marcion had written the Earliest Gospel.

ADDENDA: Marcion had criticized this growing Christian interest and sympathy for John the Baptist in Luke 17:24-25.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply