Nasaraeans, Mandaeans, Enochic Judaism, & Christianity.

[Secret Alias]

A 'strain' of Judaism? No. Judaism is a late development of a Samaritan cult rooted around Mt Gerizim which had roots in Semitic astral worship.

[Ben C. Smith]

A 'strain' of Judaism? No. Judaism is a late development of a Samaritan cult rooted around Mt Gerizim which had roots in Semitic astral worship.

I am not sure how the second half of your sentence justifies the objection given in the first half.

All I mean is that there were apparently some Jews (like Ezekiel) who thought that the Temple should have no part of the worship of the heavenly spheres, and there were apparently other Jews (like the men in his vision to whose practices he strenuously objects) who thought that the Temple should be dedicated, at least in part, precisely to that sort of thing. I am calling these differences of opinion "strains," but if you have a better term for them, have at it.

[Secret Alias]

1. the Creation myth is divided into 7 where each day of the week (originally) was associated with 7 gods related to the planets.
2. the symbol of the religion (the mogen david is later) = the same 7
3. the enemies of Judaism = Christianity down through to Manichaeanism understand Judaism as an astral religion with seven watchers.

What's left? Modern apologists?

[Secret Alias]

We always butt heads over the same issue - core truths vs later nonsense. The idea that Judaism is an astral religion is a core truth. Those who say it isn't are later heresies.

PS and the Mogen David is a symbol of Saturn.

The Jews (and Philo is the epitome of this) understood the cosmos = god. The cosmos = the seven planets.

[Ben C. Smith]

We always butt heads over the same issue - core truths vs later nonsense. The idea that Judaism is an astral religion is a core truth. Those who say it isn't are later heresies.

Fortunately, my (very simple) statement requires no resolution of such issues. Just as one can admit that there are currently both Catholic and Protestant strains of Christianity, regardless of which is the more original, so too one can speak of both astral and nonastral strains of ancient Judaism, regardless of which is the more original.

[Secret Alias]

there are currently both Catholic and Protestant strains of Christianity, regardless of which is the more original

???

Is there any doubt which is more original? Not understanding. Protestantism is a 16th century phenomenon at the earliest. Protestantism has NO relevance to the study of early or earliest Christianity. At best it tells us what white/norther European people did when they were able to reshape Christianity away from its roots in Mediterranean mystery religions.

Surely originality matters.

[Ben C. Smith]

there are currently both Catholic and Protestant strains of Christianity, regardless of which is the more original

???

Is there any doubt which is more original? Not understanding.

You are off on a beam here. I nowhere said or implied that we cannot know which is first. I said that both exist regardless of which came first, a statement which is trivially true.

Please try to get out of the rhetorical woods you find yourself in right now and meet me halfway here; try to understand what I am saying without automatically mapping it out onto what is important to you.

[Secret Alias]

I said that both exist regardless of which came first

Ok. So in this case why should we believe that there was an ancient form or the ancient most form of Judaism which wasn't exactly what early Christianity says it was - astral worship i.e. that the menorah = the seven planets? Why should we not take that as original? I think - without getting you angry I hope - that this is a blind spot in your approach. Surely we can agree that the seven days of Genesis = the sevenfold menorah = the seven planets. That may not have been what they taught you in Sunday school or me in my background, but that has to be the original understanding of Judaism and hence the Mandaean attack against Jews and Judaism, the early Christian attack against Jews and Judaism etc.

[Secret Alias]

I also take the references to Jews worship angels related to astral powers for instance the Preaching of Peter:

Neither worship ye him as do the Jews, for they, who suppose that they alone know God, do not know him, serving angels and archangels, the month and the moon: and if no moon be seen, they do not celebrate what is called the first sabbath, nor keep the new moon, nor the days of unleavened bread, nor the feast (of tabernacles?), nor the great day (of atonement).

[Ben C. Smith]

I said that both exist regardless of which came first

Ok. So in this case why should we believe that there was an ancient form or the ancient most form of Judaism which wasn't exactly what early Christianity says it was - astral worship i.e. that the menorah = the seven planets? Why should we not take that as original?

It seems fairly likely to me that it is more original than Ezekiel's reaction against it. Was it Josiah who destroyed the chariots which the kings before him had apparently been dedicating to the Sun God right at the gate of the Temple? I think it was Josiah.

Surely we can agree that the seven days of Genesis = the sevenfold menorah = the seven planets. That may not have been what they taught you in Sunday school or me in my background, but that has to be the original understanding of Judaism and hence the Mandaean attack against Jews and Judaism, the early Christian attack against Jews and Judaism etc.

I think you are right. What I wonder is why you would think otherwise. Because I wrote of "two strains" of Judaism? There were many, many more than two, and they cannot all be original.