"John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

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Giuseppe
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"John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:15 am

Two thinks connect John the Baptist with Greece:
  • The name "John" means "the Ionian", by extension, "the Greek"
    • Σίμων ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωάνου (John 1:42) == Σίμων Βαριωνᾶ (Matthew 16:17) ---> Ιωανης == Ιωνα
    • Ionia = Ἰωνίς, Ιωνάς, Ίων, Ιωνία
  • "Baptist" is also the role of the herald about which Hermes talks in Corpus Hermeticum IV, this herald was sent by God to mankind with a bowl of νοῦς (divine mind) in which men could be baptized if they chose to heed the call and accept the offer of gnosis or higher, divine knowledge and consciousness.

The myth of Hermes appointed by the Father to proclaim to the pagans a symbolic baptism of intellect was, on the one hand, judaized in the myth of John the Baptist sent by God (John 1:6) to proclaim to the Jews a baptism of μετάνοια (Mark 1:4 ss.), not of "repentance for the remission of sins" as we want to understand later, but of change of religion, of "conversion" to the true God, to the Father that they do not know and do not want to know (John 7:28; 8:19; Acts 20:21), and, on the other hand, enacted, "sacramentalized" in the rite of baptism with water by which Jesus himself received the anointment of the spirit consecrating him "Messiah" or "Christ" (Luke 4,18; Isaiah 61:6).
And just as those who have not listened to the proclamation of Hermes are remained only endowed with reason, having acquired neither intellect nor gnosis or knowledge of the Father, so "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, no one can enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) - and this is why it was impossible that the Jews who had refused the baptism of John, could believe.


(my bold)
https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ltp/19 ... 0401ar.pdf
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:00 pm

New worst Giuseppe thread.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Giuseppe
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:52 pm

the worst thing is not that you insult me (I may tolerate it), the worst thing is that you are despising in the same time two great mythicists of the past:
  • Hermann Raschke (proponent of "Ionia" for the invention of "John")
  • Jean Magne (proponent of the propotype Hermes giver of νοῦς behind the invention of the "Baptist")
Hence, what do you wait I can answer to your insult?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:55 pm

Why not νοῦς from the French plural pronoun nous?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ulan
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Ulan » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 pm

Come on, Stephan. You may not like the idea, but νοῦς is at least a central concept of Socratic philosophy and, more importantly, gnosticism (Valentinus, Basilides, Simon Mages, Gospel of Mary). It's the other part that throws me off.

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Giuseppe
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:44 am

Ulan wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 pm
It's the other part that throws me off.
taken alone, you are right: Iôn (for "Ionia") behind "John" doesn't say nothing.

But it also assumes meaning in the light of the νοῦς (given by Hermes) converted to holy spirit (given by the Baptist): the essential idea is that the salvation comes from the Greeks, not from the Jews.

I would accept this view to interpret the enigma "John the Baptist", but the great obstacle is that the Greek Marcion hated John the Baptist as prophet of the evil demiurge (YHWH).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:26 am

Come on, Stephan
Low hanging fruit.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: "John the Baptist" = the "Ionian" who gives νοῦς

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:56 am

The following table is derived from the book Elijah and the Rabbis: Story and Theology of Kristen Lindbeck, p. 92-93, Columbia University Press, 1993.


LEGENDARY AND MIDRASHIC
ELIJAH
BIBLICAL ELIJAH HERMES
Herald of the Messiah or End
of Days.
Will come before "the
day of the Lord."

Herald of the gods.

Messenger of God, answers when
asked what God is doing; associated
with God as supporter of human
(that is, Rabbinic) initiative—never
punishes chutzpah in relation to
God, though angels do.
Prophet and, as such,
God's messenger. He
is also a prophet who
feels free to complain to
God, but is intolerant of
others.
Messenger of Zeus,
but one who is not
afraid to speak boldly
before him, as he does
in his origin myth.
Protector of poor/powerless, appearing
in disguise to fool Gentile
courts or refusing to visit haughty or
unjust Jews in power.

Performed two beneficent
miracles for
individual widows, both
of whom helped him.

With Zeus, blesses
Philemon and Baucis,
who welcome them in
disguise.

Gives money to the deserving
unpredictably and not because
specifically appealed to.


Gives a bottomless flour
jar and oil jug to the
widow of Sidon.
God of financial matters:
a windfall was a
hermaion.

Source of wise proverbs and solves
difficult questions. Later, the word
unresolved in the Talmud is taken to
be an acronym for "until Elijah will
come and solve it."

God of rhetorical arts
and wisdom when
connected to Thoth,
Egyptian god of
wisdom.


Travels between Earth, Eden, and
the heavenly court/academy.
Ascends to heaven
without dying.

Travels and mediates
among realms.
Occasionally heals. Heals and revives from
the dead.
Associated with
Asclepius, patron of
healing.
Sometimes portrayed as an angel. At times identified as
an angel by Christians
authors and Jewish
magical texts.
Sometimes appears in dreams. Appears in or brings
dreams.
Helps travelers in several stories;
gives advice for prayer when traveling;
is met while traveling.
Has no fixed address. Patron of travelers.
Sometimes fallible in legend, and
more so in midrash, which holds
Elijah was too harsh.
Definitely fallible in
Scripture.
Will lie or deceive to protect the
righteous—especially when appearing
in disguise. In midrash it says
that Elijah "stole the key to rain,"
causing the drought he prophesied,
and had to give it back to revive the
dead.
God of fast-talkers
and thieves; in his
origin myth steals
Apollo's cattle as an
infant.
In two stories found in a graveyard
or at a tomb—both ritually unclean
in Judaism.
God of graveyards.
Once in Bavli, and at least once in
early medieval sources, acts as God's
scribe.
Heavenly scribe, especially
when associated
with Thoth.
On one occasion heralds a rabbi
new-come to paradise.
Guide of souls to
the afterlife, heralds
heroes.

Once a peacemaker between rabbis.
Peacemaker (in Malachi).
Not a respecter of authority, helps
rabbis challenge God. Rescues
rabbis from trouble in clever and
sometimes embarrassing ways.
Trickster.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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