the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

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Giuseppe
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the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:59 am

  • the fact that Jesus doesn't deny that he is a Samaritan

    The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus

    (John 8:48-49)
  • the fact that the episode above is a Christian corruption of the following episode (John 1:20-22) about pharisees questioning John the Baptist:

    Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”

    21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

    He said, “I am not.”

    “Are you the Prophet?”

    He answered, “No.”

    22 Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

  • the fact that the Samaritan messiah killed by Pilate shares with the Baptist passage in Josephus:
    • his innocence
    • the crowd
    • the preventive action against the leader
    • the death and/or burial in Samaria
    • the condemnation of the hard repression by the crowd
    • the final defeat of the killer

I am inclined to follow this solution because:
  • this explains why Marcion hated John the Baptist (the latter adored YHWH since he was a Samaritan)
  • this explains why Mandeans and some Gnostic haters of YHWH exalted John as giver of νοῦς (as Samaritan, he could be used in anti-Jewish function)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:15 pm

I hope you will have your next post begin " the More Smart Argument ..." I imagine the Cookie Monster is writing them.

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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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MrMacSon
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:05 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:59 am
  • the fact that the Samaritan messiah killed by Pilate shares with the Baptist passage in Josephus:
    • his innocence
    • the crowd
    • the preventive action against the leader
    • the death and/or burial in Samaria
    • the condemnation of the hard repression by the crowd
    • the final defeat of the killer
The account of the Samaritan Prophet in Josephus' Antiquities 18.85-87 'shares [those points] with' the John the Baptist account in Antiquities 116-119 / 18.5.2 ??

Is this different to your points three years ago, here viewtopic.php?t=3096, ??

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Giuseppe
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:05 pm

1. Secret Alias, what is your view on the Baptist? And how do you resolve Marcion's opposition to the Baptist?

2. MrMacSon, it is evident that I am comparing these two passages in Josephus (therefore references are not necessary), as it is evident that I am not repeating old arguments.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:41 pm

Marcion calls John the Baptist the greatest prophet of all time.

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women a greater prophet than John the Baptist, there is none


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Joseph D. L.
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:45 pm

How can Marcion be opposed to John when baptism is the central tenet to Marcion's theology? If anything John the Baptist is a proxy for the earliest layer of Marcion, even more so if you assume ur-John was Marcion's actual text. Jesus and John are practically the same person.

Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; And of some, that Elijah had appeared; and by others, that a prophet, one of the original ones, was risen again. And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.


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Giuseppe
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:57 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:41 pm
Marcion calls John the Baptist the greatest prophet of all time.

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women a greater prophet than John the Baptist, there is none

But you have to read the immediate context in Mcn:

But John was alarmed to hear about the works of Christ as if they were the works of another God.

In this turmoil, he made ask to Christ: "Are you the one who is to come or should we expect another?"
"Happy, says Christ, is he who is not scandalized because of me"
And as all were running into the wilderness to see John instead of Christ, he said:
"Who did you go to see in the wilderness?
"This is he of whom it is written: Behold, I send my messenger before your face, that he may prepare your way.

"John is certainly the greatest among all who are born of a woman, but he is more little than the least in the kingdom of God."

Marcion recognizes the relative goodness of John but only as prophet of the demiurge. John in Marcion doesn't recognize Jesus as the expected Jewish Messiah. His reaction is not different from the reaction of the other OT prophets against Jesus in Sheol:

Image

In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth,--that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent(3) which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang(4) from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

ADDENDA: it is evident that Jesus in Marcion doesn't like that people go to wilderness to see John the Baptist.

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Giuseppe
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Re: the More Strong Argument to think that John the Baptist was the Samaritan Messiah killed by Pilate

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:15 pm

note that the Baptist Passage essentially is introducing only a difference in comparison to the Samaritan Prophet passage: the identity of the killer is not more Pilate, but Herod. Apart the reference to the baptism (absent in the Samaritan Prophet episode), we have the same pattern of events.

A line of inquiry may be this: what if the changement from Pilate to Herod was deliberate? In this way the interpolator would have disconnected John the Baptist from Samaria/Pilate and connected him artificially with Herod/Judea. In this way, the Jesus of paper could replace John the Baptist as the "true" victim of Pilate.

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