Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:58 am
^ A classic that never gets old.
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Hai Cora, I responded to you over here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7792&start=180cora wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:03 pm Hai Lane,
I am trying at different pages to reach you. I have read everything you sent me. This is completely out of the box thinking that I really like. It shows independence in thinking and studying, which is extremely rare these days. And is therefore already great. I would like to talk about it with you, but can this be done off-line, via private messages or so? Your view actually touches my view. I do not want my view anymore in the open because of the reactions mostly, and you don't want your view connected to mine in the open, I guess. Okay?
greetings from Cora.
Correct.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:05 am This Pliny is Pliny the Elder, not Pliny the Younger, isn't it?
The 2002 article that you asked about is Nikos Kokkinos, "The City of 'Mariamme:' An Unknown Herodian Connection?," Mediterraneo Antico 5 (2002): 715-746. I don't have the article.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:48 amDo you have the 2002 article he references in which he apparently makes this argument? If so, what does he say?In an essay, "The Location of Tarichaea," a city in Galilee destroyed in 66 AD, which Pliny described, Nikos Kokkinos writes that Pliny was using the governor of Syria in the mid-late 1st century AD as his source on Galilee's geography:
Little doubt may remain as to whether Tarichaea would have been known enough to Pliny, whose main source for this part of his work was evidently C. Licinius Mucianus, the legatus Augusti pro praetore in Syria at the very time of the destruction of Tarichaea (Jos., War 4.32; B. W. Jones 1984, 35, 39; Da˛browa 1998, 58–59), as has been argued elsewhere (Kokkinos 2002, 729–733).
Not being an expert on Pliny, I am reliant upon the same sets of sources, both ancient and modern, that anyone else is. Let me know what you find about Mucianus.
Joan Taylor writes in her article "On Pliny, the Essene Location and Kh. Qumran":For a number of items relating to works of art near the coast of Asia Minor and in the adjacent islands, Pliny was indebted to the general, statesman, orator and historian Gaius Licinius Mucianus, who died before 77.
Wikipedia says about Mucianus:It has been suggested by Stephen Goranson that Pliny’s source on the Essenes is a lost geographical work by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (63–12 B.C.E.),15 though Nikos Kokkinos’ recent insight that this particular sec- tion may come from another lost work, by C. Licinius Mucianus (legatus of Syria 67–69 C.E.), is significant, since Mucianus made a compilation of observations regarding curiosities of the world (Pliny, Nat. Hist. 7.36), a collection of paradoxa or mirabilia in which the wonders and paradoxes of Judaea’s waters would have been appropriate, as would the marvel of the ever-enduring, sex-eschewing Essenes.16
16. Nikos Kokkinos, “The City of ‘Mariamme’: an Unknown Herodian Connection?” DSD 16,1_1-21.indd 7 1/13/2009 3:19:46 PM
Encyclopedia Britannica (1911) says about Mucianus:"He was also the author of a memoir, chiefly dealing with the natural history and geography of the East, a text often quoted by Pliny[1] as the source of miraculous occurrences."
1. Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Mucianus, Licinius" . Encyclopædia Britannica. 18 (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 954.
Scott Smith writes in "Myth and Mythography in Pliny's Geography":He made a collection of the speeches and letters of the Romans of the older republican period, probably including a corpus of proceedings of the senate (Ada senatus), and was the author of a work, chiefly dealing with the natural history and geography of the East, which is often quoted by Pliny as an authority, especially for fabulous statements.
https://polymnia-revue.univ-lille.fr/pd ... -Smith.pdfTo graft other material25 onto this basic geographical network, he
certainly drew from various other works, including Agrippa’s commentarii, administrative documents, any number of Varro’s works, Mucianus’ work on mirabilia while governor of Lycia, Cato’s Origines, an anonymous Peri ɋɛɐɘɋ that probably included material from Callimachus’ work of the same title, and, of course, his own experiences in Spain, Africa and Germany.
Caldwell goes into detail about this here: https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu.au/b ... sequence=1The importance of Pliny as a primary source for the career of Mucianus derives largely from the fact that much of the material within the Naturalis Historia originates from an earlier text composed by Mucianus himself.
Since Pliny in Chapters and sections surrounding his chapter on the Nazerini mentions places named in the 1st century AD and cites Corbulo and Mucianus as sources of information, one can't automatically say that the information in Book 5 Chapter 19 must have been totally from the 1st century Syrian figure. What is the basis for the assumption that unless Pliny specifically cites sources after the 1st century BC (eg. Corbulo) OR that the information can only be from the 1st century AD (ie. the information on Ptomemais, Claudius' colony), then Pliny MUST have been relying on a 1st century BC source? This kind of distinction and assumption seems to be artificial and unreasonable. One can guess that Pliny took some information from a 1st century BC source, but since he repeatedly cites information only possibly known to 1st century AD sources, the reasonable conclusion is that some of this kind of information in this part was also taken from mid-late 1st century AD sources like Mucianus (Consul in 52, 70, and 74 AD) leading up to Pliny's own date of publishing.Chapter 106:
In the island of Andros, at the temple of Father Bacchus, we are assured by Mucianus, who was thrice consul, that there is a spring, which, on the nones of January, always has the flavour of wine ; it is called Dios Theodosia.
BOOK II, Chapter 113:
Summary.—The facts, statements, and observations contained in this Book amount in number to 417.
ROMAN authors QUOTED.—M. Varro\ Sulpicius Gallus^, Titus Cajsar^ the Emperor, Q.Tubero^ TuUius Tiro^ L.Piso^
T. Livius'', Cornelius Nepos^, Sebosus^, CseUus Antipater^", Eabianus\ Antias^, Mucianus 3, Csecina'', who wrote on the
Etruscan discipline, Tarquitius^, who did the same, Julius Aquila'^, who also did the same, and Sergius.
Book III, Chapter 9.
- 3. Marcus Licuiius Crassus Mucianus. He was instrumental in raising the Emperor Vespasian to the throne, and was Consul in the years A.D. 52, 70, and 74 He published three Books of Epistles, and a History in eleven Books, which appears to have treated chiefly of Eastern affairs.
Another wonderful circumstance too. 'Near Circeii are the Pomptine Marshes^, formerly the site, according to Mucianus, who was thrice consul, of four-and-twenty cities.
Book 4, Chapter 22
This island long floated on the
waves, and, as tradition says, was the only one that had never experienced an earthquake, do\Mi to the time of M. Yarro* i Mucianus however has informed us, that it has been twice so visited. ... Xext to this island is Eliene*, which Anticlides calls by the name of Celadussa, and Callidemus, Artemite ; Scyros, which the old writers have stated to be twenty miles in circumference, but Mucianus 160.
Book 4, Chapter 24
We learn from Yarro and most of the ancient writers, that the circumference of the Euxine is altogether 2150 miles ; but
to this number Cornelius Nepos adds 350 more ; while Artemidorus makes it 2919 miles, Agrippa 23G0, and Mucianus 2425.
Book 5, Chapter 9:
Between Ai-sinoites and Memphites, a lake^ 250 miles, or, according to what Mucianus says, 450 miles in circumference and fifty paces deep,
has been formed by artificial means: after the king by whose orders it was made, it is called by the name of Moeris.
Book 5, Chp. 17 Section.1: Close to this river is Ptolemais, formerly called Ace, a colony of Claudius Caesar (mid-1st century AD) emperor;
Chp. 17. Section 2: On the coast, again, and lying beneath Libanus, is the river Magoras, the colony of Berytus, which bears the name of Felix Julia (who renovated portions of a house in Pompei "to apartments available for rent and other parts for public use after the major earthquake in 62 AD", per Wikipedia)
Book 5, Chapter 19, THE REMAINING PARTS OF SYRIA, is where he talks about the Nazerini.
Book 5, Chapter 20. THE EUPHRATES:
Domitius Corbulo [c. AD 7 – 67] says, that it [the Euphrates] rises in Mount Aba ; Licinius Mucianus, at the foot of a mountain which he calls Capotes, twelve miles above Zimara, and that at its source it has the name of Pyxurates.
Book 5, Chp. 34.
In the Phoenician Sea, before Joppe there is the island of Paria, the whole of it forming a town. Here, they say, Andromeda was exposed to the monster : the island also of Arados, already mentioned^, between which and the continent, as we learn from Mucianus, at a depth of fifty cubits in the sea, fresh water is brought up from a spring at the very bottom by means of leather pipes.
Your sources seem unanimous that Pliny used Mucianus mainly for his statements about strange, fantastical, and unusual phenomena (such as springs which always taste of wine). How would this tendency apply to the name of a tetrarchy in Syria?rakovsky wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:16 pmSince Pliny in Chapters and sections surrounding his chapter on the Nazerini mentions places named in the 1st century AD and cites Corbulo and Mucianus as sources of information, one can't automatically say that the information in Book 5 Chapter 19 must have been totally from the 1st century Syrian figure.
Kokkinos wrote to me "Unfortunately, my article on the city of Mariamme does not exist in electronic form, so you have to order it from an academic library. "Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:48 am
Do you have the 2002 article he references in which he apparently makes this argument? If so, what does he say?
The Short Answer is: Most sources that I cited do not say that he was used mainly for statements about marvels. Most of the 6 explicit citations to Mucianus in Pliny in the first 5 Books of Natural History do not mention fantastical phenomena, but rather facts like the circumference of a lake. ' service as governor of Syria would make his writing on facts about Syria's tetrachies relevant.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm Your sources seem unanimous that Pliny used Mucianus mainly for his statements about strange, fantastical, and unusual phenomena (such as springs which always taste of wine). How would this tendency apply to the name of a tetrarchy in Syria?
??rakovsky wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:41 amThe Short Answer is: Most sources that I cited do not say that he was used mainly for statements about marvels.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:52 pm Your sources seem unanimous that Pliny used Mucianus mainly for his statements about strange, fantastical, and unusual phenomena (such as springs which always taste of wine). How would this tendency apply to the name of a tetrarchy in Syria?