Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
mlinssen
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by mlinssen » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:40 pm

Allegedly...

If I may cut all corners, please: why oh why, given the fact that Christianity grew to be a world religion infecting billions, did no one ever bother to grow the shit little town of Nazareth into a booming metropole?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:17 pm

If I may cut all corners, please: why oh why, given the fact that Christianity grew to be a world religion infecting billions, did no one ever bother to grow the shit little town of Nazareth into a booming metropole?
Probably because, unlike (say) Pepuza for the Montanists, Naṣareth played no part in Christian worship or praxis. It fulfilled a half baked prophecy, nothing more. It apparently remained a thoroughly Jewish village for a long time (Epiphanius, Panarion 30.11.10), with little to attract outsiders, including Christians, except in their occasional capacity as pilgrims.

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:15 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:17 pm
If I may cut all corners, please: why oh why, given the fact that Christianity grew to be a world religion infecting billions, did no one ever bother to grow the shit little town of Nazareth into a booming metropole?
Probably because, unlike (say) Pepuza for the Montanists, Naṣareth played no part in Christian worship or praxis. It fulfilled a half baked prophecy, nothing more. It apparently remained a thoroughly Jewish village for a long time (Epiphanius, Panarion 30.11.10), with little to attract outsiders, including Christians, except in their occasional capacity as pilgrims.
Half baked prophecy yes, even though most would disagree there. The most plausible reason for Nazareth staying a shit little town is that Christianity had spread far away from it before that prophecy became known...
Pilgrims don't need anything but a name to attract them, and religious tourists likewise I think

When does Nazareth start to appear on maps? You likely know LOL

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:59 am

Oh, I believe its appearance on maps and even in geographic descriptions is quite late, probably medieval, with the exception of Eusebius and Jerome (centuries IV and V) including it in the Onomasticon.

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by arnoldo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:33 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:59 am
Oh, I believe its appearance on maps and even in geographic descriptions is quite late, probably medieval, with the exception of Eusebius and Jerome (centuries IV and V) including it in the Onomasticon.
It's a spectacular location in any event which probably overlooks many areas of significance mentioned in the OT.


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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:34 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:07 pm
Strabo writes of Bambyce, which is called by the names of Edessa (probably a mistake) and Hierapolis, where the Syrian goddess Atargatis is worshipped. Pliny writes of Apamea, divided by the river Marsyas from the Tetrarchy of the Nazerini, and also of Bambyx, the other name of which is Hierapolis, but by the Syrians called Mabog, where the monster Atargatis, called Derceto by the Greeks, is worshipped. We are obviously in the same basic area with both authors.
Interestingly, Ptolemy (a century or so after Pliny) has this to say about the region:

Ptolemy, Geography 5.15.19:

19 The cities in Apamene:
Nazaba or Nazama [Νάζαβα ἢ Νάζαμα], 70°30' . 34°05' .
And east of the Orontes river,
Thelmenissos or Thelbenissos, 69°40' . 35°00' .
Apameia, 70°00' . 34°45' .
Emissa, 69°40' . 34°00' .

I think Pliny is locating the Nazerini to the east of Apamea, whereas Ptolemy appears to locate Nazaba/Nazama on the west bank of the Orontes. Nevertheless, that Ptolemy has a place name in this vicinity called Nazaba/Nazama raises an eyebrow, at the very least. I have not been able to get much/any information about Nazaba/Nazama, however; everything I find so far just names the place as a location from Ptolemy.

Map of the Orontes River.png
Map of the Orontes River.png (651.31 KiB) Viewed 741 times
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:39 am

arnoldo wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:33 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:59 am
Oh, I believe its appearance on maps and even in geographic descriptions is quite late, probably medieval, with the exception of Eusebius and Jerome (centuries IV and V) including it in the Onomasticon.
It's a spectacular location in any event which probably overlooks many areas of significance mentioned in the OT.

Yes, it is a nice view. That hill/mountain may be the reason for the name of the town, it being regarded as a tower of sorts, a place for watchmen (נֹצְרִים).

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:02 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:59 am
Oh, I believe its appearance on maps and even in geographic descriptions is quite late, probably medieval, with the exception of Eusebius and Jerome (centuries IV and V) including it in the Onomasticon.

Nazareth.749 Whence the Christ was called a Nazorite (Our Lord and Savior was called). Formerly (as a taunt were called) the Nazarenes are now the Christians. It is even now in Galilee (a village) opposite Legeōn fifteen miles to the east near Mt.Thabor (named Nazara).

(http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _trans.htm)

Definitely dodgy. The note to it has:

749. Nazareth. Matthew 2:23; K. 138:24; L. 278:37.

The Vatican manuscript does not have the "Gospel" division marker before this entry.

Textual variant for Christians in Latin is "Nazorei."

In Historia Ecclesiastica I, 7, 14 Eusebius notes that after the fall of Jerusalem the relatives of Jesus scattered throughout the countryside. It was a Jewish town in the third century. In the 4th century a few shrines were built by Christians but the Jews were dominant. A city Helenopolis was located in the general region, named after Constantine’s mother, but it is never referred to in the Onomasticon any more than the two towns named after his sister Constantia. Origen didn’t know of it. No church was built here by Constantine. First reference to a church is 355 A. D. Paula visited it but no church noted there either (PPT I, 15). It was near Cana (K. 116:4) and Caphernaum (K. 120:2) on the itinerary of Paula. It is adequately located at en Nasireh which was in the region of Legeōn (K. 14:21).

In Interpretation of Hebrew Names "Nazareth, flower or his slip or of cleanness or separate or guardian." In Epistle 46 (Migne PE 22, 49) Jerome’s etymology has "his flower."


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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:21 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:15 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:17 pm
If I may cut all corners, please: why oh why, given the fact that Christianity grew to be a world religion infecting billions, did no one ever bother to grow the shit little town of Nazareth into a booming metropole?
Probably because, unlike (say) Pepuza for the Montanists, Naṣareth played no part in Christian worship or praxis. It fulfilled a half baked prophecy, nothing more. It apparently remained a thoroughly Jewish village for a long time (Epiphanius, Panarion 30.11.10), with little to attract outsiders, including Christians, except in their occasional capacity as pilgrims.
Half baked prophecy yes, even though most would disagree there. The most plausible reason for Nazareth staying a shit little town is that Christianity had spread far away from it before that prophecy became known...

Pilgrims don't need anything but a name to attract them, and religious tourists likewise I think

When does Nazareth start to appear on maps? You likely know LOL
The topography likely had a role(?) It's in a basin on top of a hill/mountain range, isn't it?

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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:45 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:21 pm
The topography likely had a role(?) It's in a basin on top of a hill/mountain range, isn't it?
Good point. Not all locations are equally suited to host a metropolis.

Siddhārtha Gautama's birthplace in Lumbini, Nepal, is not huge, either.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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