What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel Paul

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mlinssen
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:59 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:47 pm
Matthias Klinghardt thinks
  • Marcion [+/- Paul's epistles +/- the LXX-OT] -> Mark;
    • then 'Matthew' used Marcion & Mark (& other texts especially the LXX-OT) to write his gospel;
      • then 'John' use the preceding texts;
        • then 'Luke' used all these^
Merged versions of Vinzent's and Klinghardt's proposed schema's and Martijn's] would likely be feasible ...
Oh... it gets complicated then, because my theory is that Thomas invented Jesus - and John B, "James the Just", and so on. And I have hundreds of rather convincing pages to back that up (is of course my own opinion)

But, thanks! Marcion would be an irrefutable reason to counter, documented even, whereas Thomas creating a large movement is just an assumption

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MrMacSon
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:01 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:23 pm
sorry, you can say so only if you can give an alternative explanation about why Marcion gave a date so specific and precise ("the 15° Year of Tiberius") for the descent of the adult Christ on earth. I think that you can't give an alternative explanation both different from mine and from mlissen.
I was referring to Thomas and Marcion being prior to the canonical gospels, at least. And that's feasible.

It has nothing to do with anything specific. Besides, I'm not sure "the 15° Year of Tiberius" was actually in the Marcionite gospel.

I think it started

  • Jesus descended [out of heaven] into Capernaum, a city in Galilee,
    and was teaching [in the synagogue] on the Sabbath days;
    And they were astonished at his doctrine ...


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MrMacSon
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:07 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:59 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:47 pm
Matthias Klinghardt thinks
  • Marcion [+/- Paul's epistles +/- the LXX-OT] -> Mark;
    • then 'Matthew' used Marcion & Mark (& other texts especially the LXX-OT) to write his gospel;
      • then 'John' use the preceding texts;
        • then 'Luke' used all these^
Merged versions of Vinzent's and Klinghardt's proposed schema's and Martijn's] would likely be feasible ...
Oh... it gets complicated then, because my theory is that Thomas invented Jesus - and John B, "James the Just", and so on. And I have hundreds of rather convincing pages to back that up (is of course my own opinion)
I think it's feasible Thomas invented sayings [& other tropes] attributed to IC and some of those sayings [& tropes] were then used to pad out saying and other things attributed NT Jesus (and others such as John B, one or more NT Jameses, etc.

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:59 pm
Marcion would be an irrefutable reason to counter, documented even, whereas Thomas creating a large movement is just an assumption
I'm not sure what your're saying there, re "Marcion would be an irrefutable reason to counter, documented even".

Can you clarify?

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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:53 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:07 pm
[
mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:59 pm
Marcion would be an irrefutable reason to counter, documented even, whereas Thomas creating a large movement is just an assumption
I'm not sure what your're saying there, re "Marcion would be an irrefutable reason to counter, documented even".

Can you clarify?
Relatively... I should have added. Thomas is hard to be found, in history as well as writings, yet Marcion clearly has his own podium. Let me just call that "very well-attested indeed" compared to Thomas, alright?
There's this funny claim on the wiki BTW

Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian denounced Marcion as a heretic, and he was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144.[5] He published the first known canon of Christian scriptures,[6][7] which contained ten Pauline epistles (the Pastoral epistles weren't included) and a shorter version of the Gospel of Luke (the Gospel of Marcion).[8] This made him a catalyst in the process of the development of the New Testament canon by forcing the proto-orthodox Church to respond to his canon.[9


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MrMacSon
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:42 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:53 pm

Relatively... I should have added. Thomas is hard to be found, in history as well as writings; yet Marcion clearly has his own podium. Let me just call that "very well-attested indeed" compared to Thomas, alright?
Sure. I've often wondered if [what we know about] Marcion deserves a podium.

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:53 pm

There's this funny claim on the wiki BTW

Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian denounced Marcion as a heretic, and he was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144.[5] He published the first known canon of Christian scriptures,[6][7] which contained ten Pauline epistles (the Pastoral epistles weren't included) and a shorter version of the Gospel of Luke (the Gospel of Marcion).[8] This made him a catalyst in the process of the development of the New Testament canon by forcing the proto-orthodox Church to respond to his canon.9

9 = Knox, John (1942) Marcion and the New Testament: An Essay in the Early History of the Canon, Chicago: Chicago University Press.

Know was a major influence on Joseph B Tyson, and himself followed Charles Waite, who you cited recently when starting another thread,

viz. http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CW_2.htm -

.
The GOSPEL OF MARCION

and The GOSPEL OF LUKE

COMPARED

From The History of the Christian Religion to the Year Two-Hundred by Charles B. Waite

(Chicago, C.V. Waite & Co., 1900), pp.287-303.

[eta]
MARCION AND LUKE

The question of priority, as between these gospels, is one of the most interesting connected with the history of early Christian literature.

< . . snip . . >

Bishop Marsh was one of the first to do Marcion justice. He said there was no proof that Marcion used Luke's Gospel at all [Notes to Michaelis, vol.3, pt. 2, p. 160].

Since then, many of the most intelligent German critics have come to the same conclusion.

Baring-Gould also says: "Marcion was too conscientious and earnest a man, wilfully to corrupt a gospel "[Lost and Hostile Gospels, p.241].
.


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Giuseppe
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:57 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:01 pm
I'm not sure "the 15° Year of Tiberius" was actually in the Marcionite gospel.

I think it started

  • Jesus descended [out of heaven] into Capernaum, a city in Galilee,
    and was teaching [in the synagogue] on the Sabbath days;
    And they were astonished at his doctrine ...

why? To my knowledge, both Couchoud and Vinzent and Klinghardt and Roth and Lieu have "the 15° Year of Tiberius" in the incipit of Marcion.

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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:15 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:57 am
why? To my knowledge, both Couchoud and Vinzent and Klinghardt and Roth and Lieu have "the 15° Year of Tiberius" in the incipit of Marcion.
I thought David Trobisch doesn't include, "in the 15th" year of Tiberius", but he does, so I'm wrong (and I should have looked it up before posting).

So -
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:29 am

The incipit of the Evangelion of Marcion, according to any reconstruction of my knowledge:

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar Jesus Christ, Son of God, descended from heaven and appeared in Capernaum, village of Galilee...


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Giuseppe
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Re: What the interpolated John the Baptist in the incipit of the Marcion's Evangelion has eclipsed forever: the Gospel P

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:15 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:15 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:57 am
why? To my knowledge, both Couchoud and Vinzent and Klinghardt and Roth and Lieu have "the 15° Year of Tiberius" in the incipit of Marcion.
I thought David Trobisch doesn't include, "in the 15th" year of Tiberius", but he does, so I'm wrong (and I should have looked it up before posting).

So -
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:29 am

The incipit of the Evangelion of Marcion, according to any reconstruction of my knowledge:

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar Jesus Christ, Son of God, descended from heaven and appeared in Capernaum, village of Galilee...

Perfect, then.

I invite you to make this experiment:

if someone says to you:

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar HARRY POTTER descended from heaven and appeared in Capernaum, village of Galilee...



do you think that he could say so without the implicit appeal to a privileged human witness who "saw" the magical descent of HARRY POTTER from heaven precisely that day?

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