SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am

It's a rainy day. In fact, it's been raining all weekend. Worse, it has been raining for two weeks straight in a row now

So great days for writing, and coming up with crazy ideas as a result of the brain overcooking:

[EDIT BEGIN 20201013]

Sunday
Afternoon
Conspiracy
Theory


[EDIT END 20201013]

I'm not very deep into Christianity, really. I've scanned Paul, glanced at Acts, and basically confined myself to the four canonicals. I heard about Marcion a while ago, browsed it, left it at that.
Yet today I responded to Giuseppe again in one of his threads, where he didn't answer my question of the differences between the two, and I decided to look for myself

And found http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CW_2.htm
Last edited by mlinssen on Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8142
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:27 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am

Yet today I responded to Giuseppe again in one of his threads, where he didn't answer my question of the differences between the two
It is not true that I have not answered. I have addressed you to this link:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/Couchoud_Creation_1.pdf

Please read the two chapters on Marcion from p. 138 until to p. 167: they are only 29 pages.

User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 876
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by arnoldo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:31 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am
It's a rainy day. In fact, it's been raining all weekend. Worse, it has been raining for two weeks straight in a row now

So great days for writing, and coming up with crazy ideas as a result of the brain overcooking

I'm not very deep into Christianity, really. I've scanned Paul, glanced at Acts, and basically confined myself to the four canonicals. . .
Check out the OT also.

mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:49 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:27 am
mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am

Yet today I responded to Giuseppe again in one of his threads, where he didn't answer my question of the differences between the two
It is not true that I have not answered. I have addressed you to this link:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/Couchoud_Creation_1.pdf

Please read the two chapters on Marcion from p. 138 until to p. 167: they are only 29 pages.
Indeed you have, sorry! I missed that very last word being a link

mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:51 am

arnoldo wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:31 am
mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am
It's a rainy day. In fact, it's been raining all weekend. Worse, it has been raining for two weeks straight in a row now

So great days for writing, and coming up with crazy ideas as a result of the brain overcooking

I'm not very deep into Christianity, really. I've scanned Paul, glanced at Acts, and basically confined myself to the four canonicals. . .
Check out the OT also.
I have actually read just about the entire OT, as that pertains to Thomas ;-)
Skipped Ezekiel of course, and some other stuff. Scanned most, just to get the general idea. It's all rather boring and the translations not to be trusted anyway.
Anyway...

mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story < Marcion <-> Luke differences

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:53 am

All material gratefully copied from http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CW_2.htm

MARCION, ch. 1, v.4.
Saying, 'Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, Jesus?

LUKE ch. 4, v.34.
Saying, Let (us) alone; what have we to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth?

Added "of Nazareth"

MARCION, 1.10.
And he came to Nazareth, and as his custom was, etc.

LUKE, 4.16.
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and as his custom was, etc.

Again, Luke wants to stress that Nazareth is Jesus's home town

MARCION, 3.19.
And the whole multitude sought to touch him.

LUKE 6.19.
And the whole multitude sought to touch him; for there went Virtue out of him, and healed (them) all.

No clue really, although there's more healing required, apparently. Read logion 74 in the real translation and find out how you've been fooled by Lambdin, Layton, Guillaumont et al, and all. Although they likely didn't realise what they were obfuscating

MARCION, 4.29
And going into the house of a Pharisee, he ate with him.

LUKE, 7.36.
And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

Just to stress that it wasn't the initiative of Jesus, and to stress the threshold?

MARCION, 4, 30.
But a sinful woman, standing near, before his feet, washed them with tears, and anointed them, and kissed them.

LUKE, 7.37 and 38.
37. And behold, a woman in the city, who was a sinner, when she knew that (Jesus) sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38. And stood at his feet, be hind (him,) weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe (them) with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed (them) with the ointment.

Luke/Matthew wants to state the city, and "sinful woman in the city" just doesn't have the right sound. He drops the sinful, and just like a row of dominos, it all comes tumbling down.
The alabaster box doesn't disturb anything but "behind" makes for quite an acrobatic scenery. But it seems to be meant to introduce action and we must envisage how the woman meekly stands behind him, attracts attention by weeping, suddenly bows down at his feet and starts (finally!) the washing with tears, and oh Lawd we now know where the tears come from. Very, very cunning (not).
Very pragmatically, like mentioning that the white robe of Jesus at the Transfiguration was whiter than any bleach could have accomplished, the wet feet are wiped before they're anointed. But where to get a towel? Ah wait, the woman has long hair! What a great and smart invention - did I mention the word 'cunning'? And of course, kissing freshly anointed feet gives you a smelly and / or greasy mouth or lips, so the better order is to kiss first and then anoint.
Thank you Luke! Of course, all this cunningness comes at a price, and it always is the same price: length - enormous length. And a bit of cringing, naturally, because of all the overexplaining.
A truly beautiful example of copying; I witness the same in the canonicals where the first one to copy Thomas tends to overexplain, adding unnecessary details because a very concise story is their source and they find themselves desperately needing to explain everything, and they just can't stop it:

(47d) And new wine is not put into old wineskins, lest they burst; nor is old wine put into a new wineskin, lest it spoil it.
(47e) An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, because a tear would result."

2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, or else the patch shrinks and the new tears away from the old, and a worse hole is made. 22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the skins, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins."

No need to explain anything here, I hope. Yet let's return to Marcion and Matthew, errrr Luke

MARCION, 4.36.
And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thy house; thou gayest me no water for my feet. She has washed my feet with her tears, and has anointed them, and kissed them.

LUKE, 7.44 to 46.
44. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house; thou gayest me no water for my feet. But she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped (them) with the hairs of her head.
45. Thou gavest me no kiss; but this woman, since the time I came in, hath not ceased to kissmy feet.
46.My head with oil thou didst not anoint; but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Same as previous

MARCION, 5.22.
He was sleeping with the sailors,
(...)
and he arose, and rebuked the wind, and the sea.

LUKE, 8.23, 24.
22. But as they sailed, he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled (with water), and were in jeopardy.
(...)
24. And they came to him, and awoke him, saying: Master, Master, we perish! Then he arose, and rebuked the wind, and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

It's a quickie really, Marcion. I can find no use for the elaboration by Luke, sorry, but perhaps there's something in the raging of the waters, and the perishing - odd words

[EDIT BEGIN 20201014]

I'm kidding of course, Luke is doing a verbatim copy of Jonah 1:4-6 here. Him sleeping alone, they saying that they perish, and the word κλύδων pointing straight to Jonah 1:4 and 1:11 as well, and Luke's 8:24 ἀπολλύμεθα is a verbatim copy of the LXX απολώμεθα of Jonah 1:6. It is so blatantly obvious a copy that I get blushes while writing this, honestly

[EDIT END 20201014]

MARCION, 5.41
And a woman, touching him, was healed of an issue of the blood. And the Lord said, who has touched me?

LUKE, 8.43 to 45.
43.And a woman, having an issue of blood twelve years, who had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed by any,
44.Came behind (him), and touched the border of his garment; and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45. And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they who were with him, said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me?

Again, overexplaining. The number twelve needs to be dropped, apparently. Yet the fact that physicians heal only those who don't know them, is abundantly demonstrated this way, I presume?

MARCION, 6.22.
Saying: The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be put to death, and after three days, rise again.

LUKE, 9.22.
Saying: The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
##########
MARCION, 6.30.
And behold two men talked with him; Elias and Moses in glory.

LUKE, 9.30,31.
30.And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Ellas;
31. Who appeared in glory and spake of his decease, which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The rejection is to fulfil scripture,the chief priests and scribes are there for doubling, be slain is likely a very telling word in the original Greek, and at the third day is to fix Mark

MARCION, 6.34.
From the cloud a voice, saying: This is my beloved son.

LUKE, 9.35.
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved son. Hear him.
##########
MARCION, 6.40.
And he said to them, O, faithless generation; how long shall I suffer you?

LUKE, 9.41.
And Jesus answering said: O faithless and perverse generation! How long shall I be with you, and suffer you?
##########
MARCION, 7.21.
In that hour, he rejoiced in the spirit, and said: I thank thee, Lord of heaven, that, etc.

LUKE, 10.21.
In that hour, Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that, etc.
##########
MARCION, 7.25.
Master, doing what shall I obtain life?

LUKE, 10.25.
Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Father is added, and eternal. The others are too subtle for me, sorry

MARCION, 7.26.
And he said unto him, what is written in the law?

LUKE, 10.26.
He said unto him, What is written in the law? How readest thou?
##########
MARCION, 8.5.
And shall go unto him at midnight, asking for three loaves?

LUKE, 11.5.
And shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves.
##########
MARCION, 8.6.
Ask and it shall be given. (Aiteite, kai dotheesetai.)

LUKE, 11.9.
Ask, and it shall be given you. (Aiteite, kai dotheesetai humin.)
##########
MARCION 8. 7, 8
Who of you, being a father, if his son ask a fish, instead of a fish, will give to him a serpent? Or instead of an egg, a scorpion?
If ye, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more your Father who is in heaven?

LUKE, 11.11 to 13.
11.If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if (he ask) a fish, will he for a fish, give him a serpent?
12.Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children how much more shall (your) heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
##########
MARCION, 8.24.
This is an evil generation; they seek a sign; no sign shall be given it.

LUKE, 11.29.
This is an evil generation; they seek a sign, and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
##########
MARCION, 9.4.
I say unto you, be not afraid of them that kill the body; fear him who has power after killing, to cast into hell. ( eis geenan.)

LUKE, 12.4, 5.
4.But I say unto you, my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that, have no more that they can do.
5.But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear; fear him who, after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. (eis teen geenan.) Yea, I say unto you, fear him.

The Holy Spirit and Jonah are added, and the promise of hell apparently is rather appealing

MARCION, 9.5.
Him shall also the Son of Man confess before God.

LUKE, 12.8.
Him shall the Son of Man also confess before the angels of God. [Similar difference in the next verse.]
##########
MARCION, 9.34.
And if he shall come in the evening watch, and shall find them so, blessed are those servants.

LUKE, 12.38.
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find (them) so, blessed are those servants.
##########
MARCION 9.42.
And the Lord of that servant will come, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

LUKE, 12.46.
The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for (him), and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
##########
MARCION, 13.29.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. Not after one has risen from the dead, will they listen.

LUKE, 16.29 to 31.
29.Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30.And he said, Nay, father Abraham; but if one, went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31.And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
##########
MARCION, 14.10.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you.

LUKE, 17.10.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
##########
MARCION, 15.31, 32.
31. And it came to pass, as he came near to Jericho, a blind man cried out, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
(...)
32. And when he had healed him, he said, thy faith hath saved thee.

LUKE, 18.35 to 43.
35.And it came to pass, that as be was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way-side, begging:
36.And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.
37.And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
38.And he cried, Saying: Jesus (thou) Son of David, have mercy on me!
39.And they who went before, rebuked him, that he should hold his peace; but he cried so much the more, (Thou) Son of David, have mercy on me!
40.And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him; and when he was come near, he asked him,
41.Saying: What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42.And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight. Thy faith hath saved thee.
43.And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, etc.

It's part of the parable implementation to stress the unexpectedness. The unprofitable servants are name-dropped, like 'duty'. And there we have the blind man, perfectly overexplained: the scenery is sketched in detail, etc

MARCION, 16.9.
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house.

LUKE, 19.9.
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
##########
MARCION, 19.4.
And he communicated with the captains, how he might betray him unto them.

LUKE, 22.4.
And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
##########
MARCION, 19.14.
And he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

LUKE, 22.14.
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
##########
MARCION, 19.51.
And striking him, they said Prophesy; who is it that smote thee?

LUKE, 22. 64.
And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face; and asked him, saying: Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

Scripture presses the need for mentioning "Son of Abraham"? The double "chief priets and scribes" (the stand-in for "Pharisees and scribes") is dropped again. And again we have fine and needless overexplanation via the blindfold

MARCION, 20.45.
And crying out with a loud voice, he expired.

LUKE, 23.46.
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

A marvellous one-liner, these days. Epic

MARCION, 20.49.
And behold, a man named Joseph, taking down the body, wrapped it up, and placed it in a hewn tomb.

LUKE, 23.50 to 53.
50.And behold, (there was) a man named Joseph, a counselor; (and he was) a good man, and a just;
51.(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathea, a city of the Jews; who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.
52.This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53.And he took it down and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulcher, that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

Trivial details? A bit too many for that, it would seem...

MARCION, 20.52.
And returning, they rested the Sabbath day, according to the commandment.

LUKE, 23. 56.
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day, according to the commandment.
##########
MARCION, 21.6.
He has risen; remember what he said, while yet living.

LUKE, 24.6.
He is not here, but is risen; remember how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee.
##########
MARCION, 21.7.
That it was necessary that the Son of Man should suffer, and be delivered up.

LUKE, 24.7.
Saying: The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
##########
MARCION, 21.37.
And he said unto them, why are ye troubled?
Behold my hands and my feet, a spirit hath not bones, as ye see me have.

LUKE, 24.38 and 39.
38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I, myself; handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Spices and ointments? The "living" reference is replaced by one to Galilee. And then we see how wonderful the NT scripture-said-so prophecies work when after Mark, at the end of Luke, by copy from Marcion, the death of jesus is predicted in explicit detail - wow! No shame there

So much for that, where Luthew elaborates on Marcion. There is a handful of verses where Luke drops Marcion or, in theory, Marcion elaborates on Luke:

MARCION, 9.26.
And your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things of the flesh; (ton sarkikon).

LUKE, 12. 30.
And your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
##########
MARCION, 14.2.
It would be better for him if he had not been born; or if a mill-stone were hanged about his neck, etc. (This may have been the reading of Luke at that time. See Tertullian adv. Marcion, 4.35.)

LUKE, 17.2.
It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, etc.
##########
MARCION, 17.25.
But they who shall be accounted worthy of God, to obtain that world, etc.

LUKE, 20.35.
But they who shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, etc.
##########
MARCION, 20.2.
And they began to accuse him, saying: We found this fellow perverting the nation, and destroying the law and the prophets, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, and turning away the women and children.

LUKE, 23.2.
And they began to accuse him saying: We found this (fellow) perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ, a king.
##########
MARCION, 21.5.
And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, those in white clothing said to them, etc.

LUKE, 24.5
And as they were afraid, and bowed down (their) faces to the earth, they said unto them, etc.

"Being born" is subtle material, and destroying the law and the prophets is a bit too destructive towards any Judaic audience. Those in white clothing? I haven't got a clue

Well, these are the differences between Marcion and Luke, but whence my SACT that Luke is Matthew?

(Oh by the way, SACT stands for Sunday Afternoon Conspiracy Theory. Best developed on rainy Sunday afternoons)

Luke and Matthew puzzle everyone, even me. Although my theory is rather satisfactory, claiming that they co-wrote their gospels together, writing for different audiences, likely in the same room - it is a stretch, really. Gospel writers making up their stuff from scratch is perfectly plausible, and that they bend and break the Tanakh in order to create self-fulfilling prophecies is no mystery either. But two of them co-operating towards different goals while aiming at an identical horizon? That is just too unlikely to be true

Anyway, I'll post that in the next Reply
Last edited by mlinssen on Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:33 am, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 876
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by arnoldo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:59 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:51 am
arnoldo wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:31 am
mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:17 am
It's a rainy day. In fact, it's been raining all weekend. Worse, it has been raining for two weeks straight in a row now

So great days for writing, and coming up with crazy ideas as a result of the brain overcooking

I'm not very deep into Christianity, really. I've scanned Paul, glanced at Acts, and basically confined myself to the four canonicals. . .
Check out the OT also.
I have actually read just about the entire OT, as that pertains to Thomas ;-)
Skipped Ezekiel of course, and some other stuff. Scanned most, just to get the general idea. It's all rather boring and the translations not to be trusted anyway.
Anyway...
Nice, I've read the OT about four or five times myself. . can't really understand the NT without the OT, IMHO.

mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story < argumentation

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:49 am

Well, those were the differences between Marcion and Luke, but whence my SACT that Luke is Matthew?

(Oh by the way, SACT stands for Sunday Afternoon Conspiracy Theory. Best developed on rainy Sunday afternoons)

Luke and Matthew puzzle everyone, even me. Although my theory is rather satisfactory, claiming that they co-wrote their gospels together, writing for different audiences, likely in the same room - it is a stretch, really. Gospel writers making up their stuff from scratch is perfectly plausible, and that they bend and break the Tanakh in order to create self-fulfilling prophecies is no mystery either. But two of them co-operating towards different goals while aiming at an identical horizon? That is just too unlikely to be true

Marcion starts at Luke chapter 4:16, and the infamous error that Luke makes is that he gets told to repeat what he did in Capernaum, where in Luke he hasn't been yet.
And the first three chapters of Luke comprise of the birth of John and Jesus (chapters 1 and 2), John's mini-stry in the first half of chapter 3, and the wondrous genealogy about all the males in line down to Joseph even though Jesus allegedly was born from the virgin Mary, with Joseph having nothing to do with it. But when you're a thickheaded lying male, the blood runs deep, I suppose

A) My theory is that there was Thomas first, creating a movement of rebellious and disobedient citizens that asked nasty questions to and about religious leaders, that threatened the order of society at that time. Whether or not you buy that is irrelevant really, as...
B) Mark followed up on that and created his jesus from scratch, making up everything as he went. Just today I learned that his literary style is rather remarkable, with complex stlystic structures, but from a theological point of view I have always wndered whether mark was really after creating a new religion, or simply aimed at pissing off the Jews by confronting them with a self-proclaimed Messiah who pissed down their throats, nullified their food laws, called their religious leaders hypocrites, and what not

And from that point on, everybody pitched in. Thomas to the left, Mark to the right, and plenty of room in between to invent your own story - which was perfectly okay really, honestly. These days we're all hung up on factual this and fact-check that but back in those days it was all about a story being interesting or not; that's all

So there comes a point where the Markan story heads a promising multitude, but quite a few things need to be straightened out. Quite a few Jews seem to be attracted to it as well, and it really needs to be bent into another direction altogether, as a considerable part of the sales funnel is incapacitated. So... having seen all the back-and-forth of the decades(?) before with one gospel written after the other, all in slightly different directions, someone has a splendid idea: two gospels at once! Two birds with one stone - now that lends credibility to a story

So Matthew sets out to write his own story, addressing the Jews. But he needs something to fix the original audience, the Thomas supporters (let's call them 'Gentiles' shall we?) and there it is, a fine elaboration on Mark, written towards Thomas and even making up a solid amount of self-invented parables. A treasure! Just a bit of fixing needed here and there, and he actually found some useful stuff in it as well, a sermon or so, something the like.

So Matthew adds to Luke what he adds to Mark: a birth story, a lineage, and a bit of youth. Oh and a bit of John B mini-stry, because it really was way too clear that the entire purpose of Luke was to put John B on stage, have him read 2 lines from script, perform 1 action, and then exit so the real character inside John B, Elijah, could perform (Elijah actually has more script in Mark than John B). He copies some of Luke into his own story, adds some of his own to Luke, et voila: Luke for the Gentiles and Matthew for the Jews, let's hear it!

Well?

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8142
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story < argumentation

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:13 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:49 am
A) My theory is that there was Thomas first, creating a movement of rebellious and disobedient citizens that asked nasty questions to and about religious leaders, that threatened the order of society at that time. Whether or not you buy that is irrelevant really, as...
B) Mark followed up on that and created his jesus from scratch, making up everything as he went. Just today I learned that his literary style is rather remarkable, with complex stlystic structures, but from a theological point of view I have always wndered whether mark was really after creating a new religion, or simply aimed at pissing off the Jews by confronting them with a self-proclaimed Messiah who pissed down their throats, nullified their food laws, called their religious leaders hypocrites, and what not
I agree that the possible Thomas priority is irrelevant, but Mark is a real enigma if considered as the first gospel. Any allegorical reading of Mark increases the confusion and the enigmatic nature of this book. I think that a bit of plausible clarity may be thrown on Mark if read as a gospel written in reaction to Marcion, just as Matthew and as Luke.

In particular, when Jesus rejects his mother and brothers, he seems to be amoral. Is this amorality of Jesus the price the proponents of Mark's priority have to pay ? I think that the answer is yes. You don't invent a god who rejects his mother and his family.

mlinssen
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story < argumentation

Post by mlinssen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:23 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:13 am

I agree that the possible Thomas priority is irrelevant, but Mark is a real enigma if considered as the first gospel. Any allegorical reading of Mark increases the confusion and the enigmatic nature of this book. I think that a bit of plausible clarity may be thrown on Mark if read as a gospel written in reaction to Marcion, just as Matthew and as Luke.

In particular, when Jesus rejects his mother and brothers, he seems to be amoral. Is this amorality of Jesus the price the proponents of Mark's priority have to pay ? I think that the answer is yes. You don't invent a god who rejects his mother and his family.
"You don't invent a god who rejects his mother and his family."

Thomas irrelevant hey?

55. say(s) IS : he-who hate his father not with his(F) mother he will be-able make-be disciple not to I and not he hate his(PL) brother with his(PL) sister not he carry of his cross within my(F) manner he will come-to-be not he make-be worthy-one to I

99. say(s) the(PL) disciple to he : your(.PL) brother with your(F) mother they stand-on-foot they on the part of the-outside say(s) he behold : they-who of these place who/which make-be of the desire of my father these are my(PL) brother with my(F) mother themselves is(M) who/which will go inward to the(F) reign-of(F) king of my father

Post Reply