Only if you assume Luke was prior to Marcion...Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:34 amto mlinssen,
There is also an argument about heaven and earth:
Furthermore, in Luke's gospel we have:
21:31 "So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
21:32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place.
21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
However in Marcion's gospel, we read (according to Tertullian's Against Marcion, IV, XXXIX):
31 Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God's Kingdom is near.
32 Most certainly I tell you, heaven and earth will not pass away until except all things be accomplished.
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will remain forever."
Here, "this generation" has been substituted by "heaven and earth".
Let me introduce to you: Thomas
A whole mouthful, logion 11. Perhaps Lambdin is more legible:
(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
(111) Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will be rolled up in your presence. And the one who lives from the living one will not see death." Does not Jesus say, "Whoever finds himself is superior to the world?"
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the law to fall. is also a likely candidate there, although flimsy.
But we also have
I labeled them C/D 3/4, even those of Mark and Matthew:
c:copy with major word variations 3:different meaning
d:completely different words yet same style 4:completely different meaning
And I really find Isaiah 51:6 a better candidate (https://biblehub.com/isaiah/51-6.htm) YLT:
Lift ye up to the heavens your eyes, And look attentively unto the earth beneath, For the heavens as smoke have vanished, And the earth as a garment weareth out, And its inhabitants as gnats do die, And My salvation is to the age, And My righteousness is not broken.
I made the comment in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7267&start=30#p113458, and directly related to the quotation:Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:34 amBut Marcion mentioned John regardless. And the first time he did that, it is abruptly, and not about John himself, but about his disciples.Marcion wouldn't want to pay much attention to John? Not that Mark pays much attention to John, of course.
I did not assume anything. And what do you mean by "authentic" concerning the canonicals? So I won't comment on that yet.You assume Jesus to be historical, the canonicals to be authentic, and that's your Beacon of Truth, to which you compare everything else. The outcome is predictable, and very biased and lopsided.
If you're wielding a hammer, everything looks like a nail
You value the other gospels over Marcion, and use that to question the authenticity of Marcion - thereby implicitly labeling the canonicals as authentic, I would say? How else would they serve as tools to judge Marcion's authenticity?And because the other gospels do not describe Jesus as likely to utter anything resembling those, the authenticity of these sayings is very questionable: