SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

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Bernard Muller
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:03 pm

to mlinssen,
(Bernard wrote:) In-depth & documented research on the historical Jesus and the beginning of Christianity, from available evidence & critical methodology
Evidence for Q is not necessarily a papyrus or parchment written with exclusively Q text. Evidence can be deducted, in case of Q, as an ensemble of all common items in gMatthew & gLuke, but not in gMark.
Of course, you'll argue that they have little in common.
Coincidence, you'll likely say
Do not guess what I would argue. Anyway you guessed wrong. I suspect you wished I would have argued that way: fat chance.

I think you got enamoured (shall I say fanatic!) by gThomas, and knowing that a Q document has not been found, never considered that gThomas is dependent on the canonical gospels.

Cordially, Bernard

mlinssen
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:03 pm
to mlinssen,
(Bernard wrote:) In-depth & documented research on the historical Jesus and the beginning of Christianity, from available evidence & critical methodology
Evidence for Q is not necessarily a papyrus or parchment written with exclusively Q text. Evidence can be deducted, in case of Q, as an ensemble of all common items in gMatthew & gLuke, but not in gMark.
Of course, you'll argue that they have little in common.
Coincidence, you'll likely say
Do not guess what I would argue. Anyway you guessed wrong. I suspect you wished I would have argued that way: fat chance.

I think you got enamoured (shall I say fanatic!) by gThomas, and knowing that a Q document has not been found, never considered that gThomas is dependent on the canonical gospels.

Cordially, Bernard
Fanatics are those that look for debate over dialogue, Bernard

davidmartin
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by davidmartin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:31 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:02 pm
to davidmartin,
That doesn't make sense when Paul is arguing against certain aspects of this "do not be quickly shaken from your composure or disturbed by a spirit, a message, or a letter thought to be from us, which says that the day of the Lord has already come"
2 Thessalonians is widely considered by critical scholars (and myself) as not from Paul, but written around 80-100.

Cordially, Bernard
I'm in agreement on the date of Thessalonians here
It still works though. If there were Christians around then who were preaching immanence and Thomas does the same then you can't say that Thomas's immanence places it later than the other gospels. Thomas is aligned closely with what 2 Thessalonians is warning against. It's quite a good fit. If Thomas is that early then it has to be treated the same as the other gospels

Saying 51 "His disciples said to him: On what day will the rest of the dead come into being, and on what day will the new world come? He said to them: What you await has come, but you do not know it."

Boom, there you have it. Thomas's claim that seeker will reign like kings is like Paul's complaint (genuine Paul letter) of those who claim they are kings. That would date some of these sayings even earlier:

1 Cor 4:8 "Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!"

Saying 1 - "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all"
Syaing 81 - "Let one who has become wealthy reign"

A simple man might think Thomas-like sayings were floating around at an early date?
It sure looks that way to me based on the evidence that is 'in front of your face'

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:00 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:31 am
A simple man might think Thomas-like sayings were floating around at an early date?
It sure looks that way to me based on the evidence that is 'in front of your face'
I agree. The one about reigning, especially, really seemed to get around (gospel of the Hebrews, gospel of Thomas, traditions of Matthias, Simonian rites).

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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by davidmartin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:04 am

everyone wants to reign right? haha
i think the reigning in a Jewish sense is what it meant, being crowned by God... not reigning through superior understanding
I think that the former is strongly implied in Thomas but if you don't know where to look for it you might assume the latter, i guess as the gnostics did but if they did... they didn't understand it!
i think of Thomas as completely reliant on a Jewish not Hellenistic worldview

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:29 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:04 am
everyone wants to reign right? haha
Tears for Fears were right: "Everybody Wants to Rule the World."

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Secret Alias
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:05 am

But ...

1. Matthew is put forward by Irenaeus as 'the Gospel of the Hebrews' even the Hebrew-language gospel (translated into Greek). This is an untruth. So we are left with explaining Matthew as a false Hebrew gospel. Why/what was the need to create this forgery?
2. If Luke used a forgery (as some have suggested) was this (a) part of the original falsification effort - i.e. Luke doubles down on the son of David notion and other anti-Marcionite notions and (b) was the anti-Marcionite motive part of Matthew's genesis i.e. a specifically pro-Jewish (whatever that means) of the Antitheses?

mlinssen
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:06 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:04 am
everyone wants to reign right? haha
i think the reigning in a Jewish sense is what it meant, being crowned by God... not reigning through superior understanding
I think that the former is strongly implied in Thomas but if you don't know where to look for it you might assume the latter, i guess as the gnostics did but if they did... they didn't understand it!
i think of Thomas as completely reliant on a Jewish not Hellenistic worldview
I think, after careful study of Thomas, in Coptic, in the correct translation, that Thomas was Samarian.
I further think that he, as a result of that, a feverishly anti-Judean.
In the Coptic, and logion 9 (the sower) he rejects both Judaism as Egyptian polytheism - I really do think that the Coptic content that we have is the original and very first version, no matter how troublesome that is for the usual context, even my context

The reigning has nothing to do with religion, he despises it. Neither has it anything to do with philosophy, he despises that as well even though Philo was his great influence.
The reigning exists in my translation with exactly that word, as Thomas uses the Coptic "reign-of" te combined that with king, poor, rich-man. Never god, of course

The meaning of it, the reign-of King of the father? Absolute inner peace

And indeed, not many have understood that. But I will seduce you if you read my interpretation of the parable of the Net, and you might come to see all of Thomas in an entirely different light

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Secret Alias
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 am

Samarian???

mlinssen
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Re: SACT: Matthew wrote Luke to support his own story

Post by mlinssen » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:02 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:22 am
Samarian???
From Samaria?
Yes. Logion 60 seems like a joke, with the Samaritan struggling with the lamb - exact same word as in logion 74 where people "go-round in separation". The Samaritan "goes-round within the lamb" and he "enters into" Judea

The exact same "enter into" that is used all over the place, but it does have a sexual connotation, of course

http://coptot.manuscriptroom.com/crum-c ... &pageID=30 left column, line 9 from the top

His delight in Zedekiah lending a hand in destroying the last kingdom of the Israelis, Jerusalem, and the Temple: Thomas really really hated the Judeans with a passion

And you know of Mount Gerizim?

32. say(s) IS : a(n) city in-case they build she/r from-upon a(n) mountain in-case he exalted in-case she/r made-strong not-to-be strength she/r fall nor she/r will be-able hidden not

That would indicate that Thomas was written before 110 BCE, but that would conflict with Caesar and the tax.
But yes, since a few months I'm working on the theory that Thomas was Samarian, and that as such Jesus was perceived as someone from Samaria

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