Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

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Giuseppe
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Re: Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:15 am

Another passage in Tertullian (4:25) where it appears again the great distance that divides Marcion from Mark:

Who shall be invoked as the Lord of heaven, that does not first show Himself to have been the maker thereof? For He says, I thank you, (O Father,) and own You, Lord of heaven, because those things which had been hidden from the wise and prudent, You have revealed unto babes (Luke 10:21). What things are these? And whose? And by whom hidden? And by whom revealed? If it was by Marcion's god that they were hidden and revealed, it was an extremely iniquitous proceeding; for nothing at all had he ever produced in which anything could have been hidden — no prophecies, no parables, no visions, no evidences of things, or words, or names, obscured by allegories and figures, or cloudy enigmas, but he had concealed the greatness even of himself, which he was with all his might revealing by his Christ.

There are no doubts, not more: the Messianic Secret in Mark — his allegories, his figures, his cloudy enigmas —, is anti-marcionite.

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Re: Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:44 am

There are no doubts, not more
Really? Leaving aside your actual interpretation of the material in Tertullian.

1. Tertullian is copying out Irenaeus's Against Marcion.
2. Irenaeus isn't exactly reliable.

In other words, a second or third hand account of an unreliable source that you have misinterpreted. Sounds like a lot of doubt is possible.

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Re: Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:45 am

You understand the conditional tense right?
What things are these? And whose? And by whom hidden? And by whom revealed? If it was by Marcion's god that they were hidden and revealed, it was an extremely iniquitous proceeding
Doesn't sound like Tertullian is saying Marcion believed this. He is just making a rhetorical argument my foolish friend.

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Re: Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:36 pm

I have pointed out the following portion in the quote from Tertullian:
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:15 am
Another passage in Tertullian (4:25) where it appears again the great distance that divides Marcion from Mark:

for nothing at all had he ever produced in which anything could have been hidden — no prophecies, no parables, no visions, no evidences of things, or words, or names, obscured by allegories and figures, or cloudy enigmas, but he had concealed the greatness even of himself, which he was with all his might revealing by his Christ.

The point of Tertullian may be resumed rapidly so:

only a Christ who uses allegories, figures, cloudy enigmas can say rightly "I have revealed something" but not a (Marcion's) Christ who doesn't uses allegories, figures, cloudy enigmas, etc.

Hence, Tertullian is conceding as known fact shared by both Catholics and Marcionites that the Marcion's Christ interpreted the Parable of Lamp as the revelation of secrets hidden not by the supreme god, but by the evil demiurge.


The point is even more clear here:

But there is that direct mode of His speaking to the people — You shall hear with the ear, but you shall not understand (Isaiah 6:9) — which now claims notice as having furnished to Christ that frequent form of His earnest instruction: He that has ears to hear, let him hear (Luke 8:8). Not as if Christ, actuated with a diverse spirit, permitted a hearing which the Creator had refused; but because the exhortation followed the threatening.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03124.htm

  • For the Catholics, who hides and who reveals is one and the same: YHWH (by his own Son)
  • For Marcionites, who hides and who reveals are two rival Gods: who hides is the evil demiurge, who reveals is the Good God (by his own Son).

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Re: Origen, Comm. in Matth. 15:3: Marcion's distance from the enigmatic obscurity of Mark (and of Thomas)

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:48 pm

Along the same identical line of thoughts, note that we have evidence also in Ephesians 3:9.

This is the Catholic reading:

I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that had kept secret from the beginning in God, the Creator of all things.

This is the Marcionite reading (docet Markus Vinzent and docet TJ Lang):

I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that had kept secret from the beginning by God, the Creator of all things.


It is evident here that for Catholics who hides is the same god of Jesus Christ and Paul.

While for Marcionites, who hides is a different god, the evil demiurge, enemy of both Jesus Christ and Paul.

You see, Secret Alias, this interpretation of Marcion's Jesus as a Revealer and not as an Obscurer is too much diffuse to be reduced to only Irenaeus's propaganda.


My final point, where I want to arrive from the beginning, is the following:

Mark 4:11-12, where Jesus is the Obscurer by excellence, is the most anti-Marcionite there can be in the whole New Testament.

Once accepted this, the entire gospel of Mark is anti-marcionite. In other words, the essentia of Marcion's message is found more in proto-Luke (and in proto-John) than in other gospels.

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