Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:24 am

I was going to quote from this book:

Paradise Reconsidered in Gnostic Mythmaking: Rethinking Sethianism in Light of the Ophite Evidence

by Tuomas Rasimus

Searching for "Pilate" in a book where the principal argument were Archontic Gate-Keepers, I have a great surprise:



For example, the chief archon asks (the breath in) Adam his identity and origin (Orig. World 115,19–20) just as Pilate asks Jesus (John 18:33; 19:9); the archons take Adam and put him in paradise (Orig. World 115,28–29) like Jesus is taken from the cross and placed in a tomb in a garden (John 19:40–42); after the day of rest, i.e., the Sabbath, Zoe (Eve, Adam’s companion) comes to Adam (Orig. World 115,30–34) and after the Sabbath, Mary (Jesus’ “companion”) comes to look for Jesus (John 20:1 parr.); Adam is awakened after the day of rest (Orig. World 115,30–116,8) just like Jesus is awakened after the Sabbath (John 20:1–23; Luke 24:7). For these and more, see Painchaud 1995b, 403ff. Painchaud assigns this parallelism to the first redaction of the primitive text (1995b, 113).

8p. 176, note 61, my bold)

This confirms my same point.


I MUST to find this Painchaud!
Last edited by Giuseppe on Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 am


Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed. They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?" It answered and said, "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work." When they heard, they glorified him, since he gave them respite from the fear and the anxiety in which they found themselves. Then they called that day "Rest", in as much as they had rested from toil. And when they saw that Adam could stand up, they were glad, and they took him and put him in Paradise. And they withdrew up to their heavens.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:58 am

I have found online the book of Pinchaud,

https://books.google.it/books?redir_esc ... on&f=false

....and I am going to find a serie of interesting things.

For example, the passage where it is said:


Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed.

...is an allusion to

...because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid.

(Mark 6.50)

As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.

(Mark 9:15)

When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It's a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

(Matthew 14:26)

...but especially, it is an allusion to:

And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.”

(Luke 23:2)


Hence the evidence of the "historical sedition" vanishes completely.

In p. 408, Pinchaud writes:

Mais ces questions, après les allusions néotestamentaires au trouble suscité par Jésus et à son arrestation, font également allusion aux interrogatoires subis par Jésus, interrogatoires portant sur son identité (Mt 27:11; Mc 15:2; Lc 23:3; Jn 19:33) et sur son origine (Jn 19:9)...

(my bold)

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Giuseppe
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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:15 am

But what has soundly galvanized me is this Pinchaud's quote:

115,23 «ils le glorifièrent (§§§§§§§): d'après H.-G. Bethge, il est inconcevable que les puissances inférieures glorifient celui qui leur a fait cette réponse. Aussi suppose-t-il une corruption du texte qui aurait fait disparaître une intervention du Grand Géniteur à qui s'adresserait cette glorification (Bethge, 1975 II, p. 361, voir aussi Bethge et Layton 1989, p. 67). Je crois au contraire que cette phrase est bien à sa place. En effet, dans le registre de la narration en cours, les puissances «célèbrent» ironiquement celui qui leur a ainsi répondu car sa réponse atteste le succès de leur entreprise. Cependant, je crois qu'il faut aussi replacer cette phrase dans la séquence des allusions néotestamentaires précédemment relevées. La glorification de l'Homme par les archontes, c'est la crucifixion (cf. Jn 12:16). Cette interprétation s'impose autant en raison des allusions à l'arrestation et au procès de Jésus qui précèdent qu'en raison des allusions à sa sépulture et à sa résurrection qui suivent.

(p. 409, my bold)

my free translation:

115,23 “they glorified him" (§§§§§§§): according to H.-G. Bethge, it is inconceivable that the evil powers glorify the one who gave them this answer. So he supposes a corruption of the text which would have made disappear an intervention of the Grand Progenitor to whom that glorification would be addressed (Bethge, 1975 II, p. 361, see also Bethge and Layton 1989, p. 67). On the contrary, I believe that this sentence is in its place. Indeed, in the register of the current narration, the powers ironically “celebrate” the one who answered them so because his answer attests the success of their enterprise. However, I believe that this sentence should also be placed in the sequence of New Testament allusions previously noted. The glorification of Man by the archons is the crucifixion (cf. Jn 12:16). This interpretation is necessary as much because of the allusions to the arrest and trial of Jesus which precede, as well as because of the allusions to his burial and resurrection which follow.

(my bold)

This is strictly close to what Robert M. Price has seen correctly, when he writes:
It was part of the same theological transformation whereby the myth of the slaying of the Man of Light by the archons before the foundation of the world was rewritten as the historical crucifixion of a human being, Jesus Christ, at the hands of the Sanhedrin and the Roman procurator. As the extraction and seeding of the spiritual photons of the Son of Man had enlivened the new-made earth, so the blood of Jesus was now said to redeem the souls of humanity.
(The Amazing Colossal Apostle, p. 82, my bold)

Note that none (not even dr. Carrier) knew why Bob Price placed the celestial crucifixion of Jesus in outer space before the creation of the world. Now we know why.

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:17 am


And their heavens will fall one upon the next and their forces will be consumed by fire. Their eternal realms, too, will be overturned. And his heaven will fall and break in two. His [...] will fall down upon the [...] support them; they will fall into the abyss, and the abyss will be overturned.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

The heaven of the evil demiurge Yaldabaoth breaks in two.

Note how "Mark" (Judaizer) has judaized this breaking in two of the demiurge's heaven "at the end of times":

"The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom

(Mark 15:38)

The curtain of the temple was known to allegorize the heaven of YHWH. "Mark" is so much a judaizer that he is going to make the breaking in two of the YHWH's heaven an event provoked by a benevolent god (=YHWH), by connecting it with the baptism of Jesus (absent in Marcion's Evangelion):


Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove

...when really in the original myth the rending of the heaven was provoked by the failure of the evil demiurge YHWH.

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Tuomas Rasimus

Post by arnoldo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:59 pm

Tuomas Rasimus has a rather impressive list of publication/studies. I'll have to read it some day.

Rasimus’ current research project, The Other Christianities in the New Testament, aims at producing a new, comprehensive, and up-to-date synthesis of those forms of Christianity that are described, but not promoted, by various New Testament authors (e.g., John the Baptist-Christians, Judaizers and Jewish-Christians—who exceptionally have also their own voice represented in the NT—, Simon Magus and Samaritan Christianity, Nicolaitans and emperor worship, angelomorphic Christologies, and the question of “proto-Gnosis”). Rasimus’ earlier book, Paradise Reconsidered in Gnostic Mythmaking (E.J. Brill, 2009)—an updated version of his 2006 doctoral thesis—offers a new understanding of Sethianism and the origins of Gnosticism by examining the mythology in and social reality behind a group of texts to which certain leaders of the early church occasionally attached the label ‘Ophite.’ (e.g., Irenaeus’ Adv. Haer. 1.30, On the Origin of the World, Eugnostos, Apocryphon of John). It is argued that Hans-Martin Schenke’s influential model of the ‘Sethian system’ only reveals part of a larger whole to which the Ophite material belongs as an important and organic component.
http://www.helsinki.fi/teol/pro/gnosti/ ... rchers.htm

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:51 pm

I should read surely this book:

L'écrit sans titre: Traité sur l'origine du monde (NH II,5 et XIII,2 et Brit. Lib. Or. 4926[1])

of Louis Painchaud.

The fifth document of codex II, which has come down to use without a title, is a veritable didactictreatise on the origin of the world. It seems intended to persuade a non-Gnostic audience (probablyJewish) to embrace Gnostic beliefs concerning the creation of the world, in order to discredit the Godof the Jewish Scriptures and to invite them to accept a superior doctrine concerning the existence of atranscendent God, superior to the Demiurge and master of the material world.This is what are is led to believe in light of the disposition of the tractate and the material used in eachof its parts. After a prologue claiming to refute the theory of the primacy of chaos, in order to win overthe Jewish or Christian readers, the Gnostic master delivers a long exposition concerning Gnosticcosmogony and anthropology. For this, he uses a Gnostic source also cited in the Hypostasis of the Archons and, possibly, the Apocryphon of John. These sources present the divine creator of thematerial world as an ignorant and envious god that blasphemes and claims to be the only god.Certainly by means of captatio benevolentiae, the author makes Sabaoth, one of the sons of the Demiurge Ialdabaoth, an example of Gnostic conversion, and proposes to his readers the God of the Jewish Scriptures as a model. In his anthropogonic exposition, he again presents Ialdabaoth, the creator God, as ignorant and jealous, when Adam and Eve, like Sabaoth, become models who attain true knowledge by disobeying their creator. Once this exposition ends, the author proposes as a demonstration not an argument drawn from some Gnostic myth, but the belief, well attested in inter-testamental Jewish literature, that idolatrous cults,magical practices and spells had been taught to human beings by the fallen angels that he hastens to identify with the archons of his exposition. The tractate concludes with an epilogue that summarizes the exposition and concludes with a vibrant appeal to conversion, a promise of reward or eternal punishment.The literary links observed in this untitled document, as well as the text known to us as Eugnostos the Blessed permit the belief that these two tractates originally formed two sides of a diptych—the first dedicated to the origin of the world and the second to the transcendent God. Subsequently, these twodocuments have taken different paths in which they have experienced a certain number of modifications

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:39 am

Note that Painchaud assumes that the tractat On the origin of the world betrayes knowledge of the Gospels and alludes secretly to Gospel trial before Pilate, but he ignores two alternative possibilities:
  • That the tractat On the origin of the world ignores completely any Gospel
  • That the primitive text of the tractat On the origin of the world ignores completely any Gospel
This deliberate ignorance of the latter's scenario is expected by a historicist scholar, but I am not a historicist. So what if the reading of Painchaud's book would allow me to infer that the Gospels were written by the Judaizers in reaction to the anti-YHWH propaganda of texts as On the origin of the world?

If the operation will have success, then I may even give up to the Marcionite priority hypothesis: afterall, what confidence can the presumed Marcionite paternity of the Earliest Gospel have, when this very basic nucleus of any Gospel story:


So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied.

He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

...appears to be so blatantly a banal Judaization of this story:

Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed. They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?" It answered and said, "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work." When they heard, they glorified him.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Jax » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:50 am

Now, throw in testimonials from some people on the internet that like your material and you'll be all set.

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Re: Incredible: a modern scholar has arrived independently to my same conclusion!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:22 pm

I note another extraordinary "coincidence":

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 On the origin of the world 115,23 Oldest Gospel Passion Story

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden
and that God destined for our glory before time began.

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed.

They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?"
It answered and said,
"I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work."

When they heard, they glorified him.


So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied.

He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.



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