Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:55 am

.
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The starting point of my question is the dating probably prevailing among scholars, namely to the years 69/70.


--> What would be a likely late date or a late terminus ad quem? How far would you seriously go?


--> And what are your arguments? (Can you give another argument if your main argument would be the certainty that Mark was written after Marcion or after another „heretic“ of the second century and shows an anti-marcionite view.)

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:31 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:55 am
.
.
The starting point of my question is the dating probably prevailing among scholars, namely to the years 69/70.

--> What would be a likely late date or a late terminus ad quem? How far would you seriously go?

--> And what are your arguments? (Can you give another argument if your main argument would be the certainty that Mark was written after Marcion or after another „heretic“ of the second century and shows an anti-marcionite view.)
Not I, but Hermann Detering suggests that Matthew 24.4-5, 23-24 = Mark 13.5-6, 21-22 must refer to Simon bar Kokhba, on the grounds that the latter is the only person "known" to us to have uttered the words, "I am the Christ/Messiah." (He also undertakes the obligatory task of trying to make Matthew 24 = Mark 13 fit better in the bar Kokhba era than in the events surrounding the destruction of the temple.)

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:57 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:31 am
Not I, but Hermann Detering suggests that Matthew 24.4-5, 23-24 = Mark 13.5-6, 21-22 must refer to Simon bar Kokhba, on the grounds that the latter is the only person "known" to us to have uttered the words, "I am the Christ/Messiah." (He also undertakes the obligatory task of trying to make Matthew 24 = Mark 13 fit better in the bar Kokhba era than in the events surrounding the destruction of the temple.)
I don't want to dispute Hermann's opinion, but his view was already clear before he wrote his article. I'm more interested in the opinion of others for whom this problem is an open question.

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by outhouse » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:07 pm

The dating I use is due to the war. The fall of the temple factually changed the way early christians proselytized and since they could no longer share information with their kind, they needed text to combat heretical versions and get their message out. Add to that there was an instant need to compile important traditions so that they would not loose what they found valuable in oral traditions.

This started the gospels wars where other communities found the first version did not explain what jesus had meant to them, and it did not have the details they found important. so we end up with L and M and J. J may or may not have been independent from these communities, but also was a compilation from material that existed prior to compilation date.

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:02 pm

to Kunigunde Kreuzerin,
What would be a likely late date or a late terminus ad quem? How far would you seriously go?
130 CE (see the beginning of my web page on gThomas about the external evidence http://historical-jesus.info/thomas.html
Oops, that's the dating for gThomas, not gMark. For gMark, in 70-71CE.
And what are your arguments? (Can you give another argument if your main argument would be the certainty that Mark was written after Marcion or after another „heretic“ of the second century and shows an anti-marcionite view.)
Again on my webpage:
The above postscript is not meant to "prove" GThomas is a 2nd century composition, but certainly, it strongly points to that time period, and from many paths ('Thomas', 'Judas Thomas', 'Matthew', 'Mary', 'Salome', 'James', 'the just' , "secret" and Papias' writings).
Consult my web page for my arguments about these nine paths.
Oops again, not about gThomas, but about gMark. See http://historical-jesus.info/41.html for my arguments about the dating of gMark.

I am not going to discuss these hypotheses. Because I dated gMark in 70/71 CE and gMarcion around 130 CE
Dating of Marcion:
First Apology of Justin Martyr, Chapter 26 written 150-160 CE
And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.
Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ken Olson
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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 pm

I accept the theory of Markan priority (which entails that Matthew used Mark), that the the author of the Ignatian Epistles knew Matthew's gospel, and that the Ignatian Epistles were written c. 110 CE (and are presumably authentic in their middle recension). So theoretically it could be as late as 110, more likely not much past 90.

If I'm wrong about the date of the Ignatian Epistles, or their use of Matthew, or the theory of Markan priority, I don't know how I would establish a latest possible date for Mark. (I would still date it not earlier than the destruction of he temple in 70 CE, to which it is reacting, and during a period of actual or expected persecution).

Best,

Ken

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:14 pm

75 CE. Although I would give 69 CE as the earliest possible date given that it must have been obvious the end was near. Technically 'prophesy' insofar as the city hadn't yet fallen but ...

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:18 pm

to Ken Olson,
According to my study http://historical-jesus.info/ignatius.html, the Ignatian seven epistles were written around 135 +- 10 years (except for 'to Polycarp' written much later, around 160 CE) and not by Ignatius.

Cordially, Bernard

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:26 pm

The Parable of Tenants:
He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

(Mark 12:9)

Jerusalem was not given "to others" after 70 but only after 135: it became Aelia Capitolina and populated exclusively by Pagans.

In addition:

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom

(Mark 13:8)

The only two rival kingdoms are Rome and Parthia, under Hadrian.

In addition, even if the abomination of desolation refers to 70 CE, Mark 13 appears to be rather clear that the end will not happen immediately after that event, since still Bar Kokhba has to arrive, before:

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

ADDENDA:
Hermann Raschke thinks that the centurion episode can only be a homage to Hadrian's pro-Christian policy.

He thinks even that "Andrew" is allegorical homage to "Hadrian".

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Giuseppe
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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Theological arguments:
  • "Men as Trees" assumes knowledge of Simon Magus (the Magus claimed that the man is only a tree).
  • Mary Magdalene is Magdi-Helen: "Helen by long hair", i. e. Helen of Troy, the same disciple woman of the Magus.

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