Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:47 pm

Brilliant Giuseppe. I was blind but now I see.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:56 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:47 pm
Brilliant Giuseppe. I was blind but now I see.
are you saying seriously? Or is it another of your ironies?

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by andrewcriddle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:08 pm

Ken Olson wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 pm
I accept the theory of Markan priority (which entails that Matthew used Mark), that the the author of the Ignatian Epistles knew Matthew's gospel, and that the Ignatian Epistles were written c. 110 CE (and are presumably authentic in their middle recension). So theoretically it could be as late as 110, more likely not much past 90.

If I'm wrong about the date of the Ignatian Epistles, or their use of Matthew, or the theory of Markan priority, I don't know how I would establish a latest possible date for Mark. (I would still date it not earlier than the destruction of he temple in 70 CE, to which it is reacting, and during a period of actual or expected persecution).

Best,

Ken
I've posted on this before. I accept the authenticity of the middle recension of Ignatius but I regard a date during the reign of Hadrian as more likely than that of Trajan.
Eusebius' dates for the early bishops of Antioch appear to be basically guesses.

Andrew Criddle

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:50 am

It seems that the Roman custom of dividing the garments of the crucified victims was officialized only by Hadrian the first time.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:00 pm
One is available online:

6. The Same, On the Duties of Proconsul, Book X.

The Divine Hadrian stated in a Rescript to Aquilius Bradua: "It is evident that, by the name itself, one ought to understand what is meant by clothing. For no one can reasonably say that under this term is included the property of persons who have been condemned, for if anyone is wearing a girdle, no one should claim it on this ground; but any clothing which he wears, or any small sums of money which he may have in his possession for the purpose of living, or any light rings, that is to say, any which are not worth more than five aurei, can be demanded. "Otherwise, if the convicted person should have on his finger a sardonyx, or any other precious stone of great value, or have in his possession any note calling for a large sum of money, this can, by no right, be retained as part of his clothing." Clothing of which a man can be stripped are those things which he brought with him when he was placed in prison, and with which he is attired when he is conducted to punishment, as the name itself indicates. Hence, neither the executioners nor their assistants can claim these things as spoils at the moment when the culprit is executed. Governors should not appropriate these articles for their own benefit, or suffer assistants or jailors to profit by this money, but they ought to preserve it for expenditures which Governors have the right to make; as, for instance, for paper for the use of certain officials; or as donations for soldiers who have distinguished themselves by their courage; or to be presented to barbarians belonging to an embassy; or for some other purpose. Frequently, moreover, Governors have paid into the Treasury sums of money which they had collected, which is a manifestation of too great diligence, as it will be sufficient if they do not appropriate it to their own use, but permit it to be employed for the benefit of their office.


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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:01 am

Then there is Mark 13:19:

because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

It is specified the God as the creator of the world, against Marcion who hated the evil demiurge YHWH.

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:14 am

So prof Vinzent:

That the ‘stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken’ (Mark 13:25) could be a direct allusion to Bar Kokhba, contrasted by ‘then they will see the Son of Man arriving from heaven with power and great glory’ (Mcn 21:25; Luke 21:25). To these Christian authors, it is not the star of Bar Kokhba that will fall from and shake the powers in heaven, but rather the glorious and powerful Son of Man who will arrive from above. As we will see in Aristides’ Apology, it is this designation of ‘the Son of God most High who has come down from heavens’ that is the clearest indication of the very nature of Christ as an anti-Bar Kokhba type.

extract from Writing the History of Early Christianity: From Reception to Retrospection, Markus Vinzent, Year: 2019, Cambridge University Press)

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:23 am

Mark 1:29-31:

29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them

It gives to the apostles who have known Jesus the right of having women in their service. The same right denied to Paul in the anti-marcionite interpolation:

Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

(1 Corinthians 9:5)

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:34 am

Hermas is calling the Spirit as «beloved son» and «heir»:

2[55]:3 When then he had gone away, the servant took and fenced the vineyard; and having finished the fencing of the vineyard, he noticed that the vineyard was full of weeds.
2[55]:4 So he reasoned within himself, saying, "This command of my lord I have carried out I will next dig this vineyard, and it shall be neater when it is digged; and when it hath no weeds it will yield more fruit, because not choked by the weeds." He took and digged the vineyard, and all the weeds that were in the vineyard he plucked up. And that vineyard became very neat and flourishing, when it had no weeds to choke it.
2[55]:5 After a time the master of the servant [and of the estate] came, and he went into the vineyard. And seeing the vineyard fenced neatly, and digged as well, and [all] the weeds plucked up, and the vines flourishing, he rejoiced [exceedingly] at what his servant had done.
2[55]:6 So he called his beloved son, who was his heir, and the friends who were his advisers, and told them what he had commanded his servant, and how much he had found done. And they rejoiced with the servant at the testimony which his master had borne to him.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html


But «Mark» (author) is calling the Jesus as «beloved son» and «heir»
Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

(Mark 12:1-8)

Very impossible, that who would have known from Mark that Jesus and him only has to be called "heir" and "beloved son", would call so the holy spirit (sic) in his place.

Please, note the difference: Hermas didn't know Mark, but Mark knew Hermas.

Hence Mark was written after Hermas.

The Muratorian Canon (44) states the Shepherd was written when Hermas’s brother, Pius (traditionally dated c. 140—c. 154 CE), was the bishop of Rome.

Therefore Mark was written after that time.

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by davidmartin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:08 am

Hermas is only traditionally attributed to that Hermas you mention there is no reason to think that is the real date
It probably contains material from the late 1st century to mid 2nd as an anthology
Few realise it but the Shephard actually is a window into the 1st century but what's the point of mentioning this, if it isn't obvious enough already

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Re: Late dating of Mark: How far would you go? And what are your arguments?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:34 am

davidmartin wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:08 am
It probably contains material from the late 1st century to mid 2nd as an anthology
ok (for me Hermas is not only an old text, but even a text with mythicist evidence), but my point above is that Mark follows Hermas, accordingly Mark dates still to mid 2nd.

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