How Does Christianity Work?

[mlinssen]

It's like saying to Pauline Christians, pssst you wanna know about Jesus, here's his story guys that Paul never told you

Exactly!

But what kind of early Christian group may be behind Mark is a mystery, or was it someone on the fringes doing his own thing as he thought best? hoping it to be acceptable to everyone, or is there an evangelising group behind it hoping to steer readers to their beliefs?

Dunno, unsure we ever will know. But it did make waves, it was accepted widely enough to counter it. It could be an Egyptian trying to mess with the Pauline success, could be an illiterate with money dictating his scribe without being able to read what it ended up like, could be - hell, could have been you David, or Joe (when he still was funny, that is)

I've left the conspiracy thinking long ago, a very large part in and of life is just dumb luck combined with cause and effect. And the rest is hard work

[John2]

The old Jewish Messiah thing would be about giving Israel back to the Israelites, conquer the World, populate it with Jews, andsoforth, if I am not mistaken.
I would think that the people of that time would think that Jesus would do that, as any proper Messiah would

Is/was there only one "Jewish Messiah thing"? Or rather, is/was there only one way an End Time messiah figure could give "Israel back to the Israelites, conquer the World, populate it with Jews"? And is this not exactly what Jesus (as he is portrayed in the literature, especially Revelation) thought he would do when he returned to earth as a spiritual being?

The only thing that seems different about Jesus to me (as opposed to all the other "I am He" guys he warned his followers about) is the way that he thought he would accomplish what "any proper Messiah" would do, i.e., to suffer and die first and then "become governor of the habitable earth" (as per Josephus). And while Jesus' followers are presented as not fully understanding him while he was alive, they are also presented as understanding him enough to follow him and then fully "getting it" after his death.

Don't you suppose that other "I am He" guys made "crazy" claims about themselves and had followers who used this or that OT verse to explain their rise and fall? Even Acts (5:36-38) likens Christians to other Fourth Philosophers.

Some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men joined him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and drew away people after him. He too perished, and all his followers were scattered. So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men [Christians] alone.

And don't you suppose all these guys had a similar "rap" ("I am He, man! Can't you see the signs?")? So Jesus seems as "proper" as any other would-be Messiah to me, with his particular twist.

[Ben C. Smith]

Is/was there only one "Jewish Messiah thing"? Or rather, is/was there only one way an End Time messiah figure could give "Israel back to the Israelites, conquer the World, populate it with Jews"? And is this not exactly what Jesus (as he is portrayed in the literature, especially Revelation) thought he would do when he returned to earth as a spiritual being?

The only thing that seems different about Jesus to me (as opposed to all the other "I am He" guys he warned his followers about) is the way that he thought he would accomplish what "any proper Messiah" would do, i.e., to suffer and die first and then "become governor of the habitable earth" (as per Josephus).

Moreover, the dying first may not have been an innovation at all. That is exactly what the Messiah ben Joseph was supposed to do in various Jewish readings of the scriptures (particularly the Suffering Servant texts and some passages from Zechariah). Either those actual Josephite ideas were current during the formation of Christianity or the relevant readings of scripture were, with later Jewish exegetes basically agreeing with the Christian exegesis, disagreeing only on whether the passages should apply to Jesus.

For many Jewish exegetes, the messianic mission was comprised of (at least) two stages: (1) the Messiah ben Joseph was to die in battle outside of Jerusalem and (2) the Messiah ben David was to sweep in and be victorious, at which point the Messiah ben Joseph would be resurrected. The Christian innovations may have been, first of all, the particular mode of death (crucifixion) and, second of all, making Jesus fulfill both patterns, Josephite (at the first advent) and Davidic (at the second). Even the mode of death, however, I believe can be teased out of the scriptures using methods not at all foreign to ancient Jewish exegesis, which leaves only the combination of Josephite and Davidic roles into one figure experiencing two different advents as a true Christian innovation.

[John2]

... which leaves only the combination of Josephite and Davidic roles into one figure experiencing two different advents as a true Christian innovation.

That seems like a big "only" though.

[Ben C. Smith]

... which leaves only the combination of Josephite and Davidic roles into one figure experiencing two different advents as a true Christian innovation.

That seems like a big "only" though.

Oh, sure, I agree. (And Christianity was far from finished with the innovations.) Just saying, there are not as many innovations going on as may sometimes be thought in this particular respect.

[John2]

... which leaves only the combination of Josephite and Davidic roles into one figure experiencing two different advents as a true Christian innovation.

That seems like a big "only" though.

Oh, sure, I agree. Just saying, there are not as many innovations going on as may sometimes be thought.

I suppose there can only be so many variations on the theme. But they all seem "crazy" to me, including whatever OT passages they are based on.

The Messiah idea seems like believing in Super Man to me, which is why I think of the Messiah as being "Super Jew." I gather there is something universal about the idea of a "Super Man" assisting people, but I apparently do not have it. There have certainly been heroes throughout Jewish history (like the Maccabees, the Bielski brothers, or this or that modern Israeli soldier or leader), and I can understand the desire to embellish a hero's accomplishments or explain their failures, but anything beyond that (in the OT End Time sense) seems "crazy" to me. So I ask current or former believers (out of curiosity and not to challenge), what is/was the appeal of "the Messiah" idea to you? Do/did you really think/want/expect the End Time to happen as per the OT? What do/did you think will happen to you and other people then (and why)?

[John2]

It looks to me now that the answer to "How does Christianity work?" is essentially the same as the answer to "How does Judaism work?" They are both Torah observant (for Jews) and expect an OT-based Messiah figure and End Time from which some will be "saved" or resurrected and others will perish and the Torah (including sacrifices) will be observed forever in some kind of post-End Time earthly wonderland.

And that's all too much for me. It would seem more interesting (and way less fanciful) if Jews had a normal human king (even if only as a figurehead) and a place to offer sacrifices again, both of which seem entirely possible to me (in theory, at least).

I think a little flexibility in these matters is preferable to not doing these things at all, century after century. Surely there is someone alive now who is believed to have Davidic ancestry who would make a suitable king for Jews (even if only in name), and surely another place on Mount Moriah or in Jerusalem or even some other place in Israel (like Shiloh) could be used to offer sacrifices today.

Oh, I know it won't happen, but it seems way more preferable to waiting around for a Messiah figure (whether Jesus or whoever) to do what seems (with a little flexibility) entirely possible now.