How Does Christianity Work?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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John2
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How Does Christianity Work?

Post by John2 »

Since the idea that Christianity was a faction of the Fourth Philosophy works for me, I'm now wondering, as a lifelong non-believer, how Christianity works. i suppose answers might depend on who you ask, what time period they lived in, and what texts you consider to be authentic, but I'm curious to understand "the basics."

Right off the bat I gather there are issues with 1 Cor. 15:3-8 and Php. 2:5-11, but all things considered they seem like good enough starting points for me.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all he appeared to me also ...


Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In the big picture I'm inclined to see this kind of talk as Fourth Philosophic nonsense, but the idea seems to be that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) and as such he was equal with God and the embodiment/fulfillment of Isaiah's Suffering Servant because of his suffering and death, as per Is. 53:4-6:

Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.


This passage is referred to in 1 Peter (2:21-25), which I consider to be genuine (and thus pre-70 CE).

For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps: “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth.” When they heaped abuse on Him, He did not retaliate; when He suffered, He made no threats, but entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. “By His stripes you are healed.” For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


So in my view the idea that Jesus' death atoned for sins is early and genuine and was derived largely from Isaiah's Suffering Servant, but how does this atonement work in Christianity? My understanding is that the Suffering Servant figure does not negate the necessity of making sin offerings in accordance with the Torah, and Jesus (in what I consider to be the earliest gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke) and early Christians (in Acts) do not appear to have thought that sacrifice was obsolete.

So what does it mean in this context that Jesus "died for our sins"? For me it is the same as asking, What does it mean that the Suffering Servant "died for our sins"? Neither figure (the Suffering Servant and Jesus) appears to me to negate the necessity of making sacrifices in accordance with the Torah. So in what sense (or to what degree) then do they serve as sin offerings?

Perhaps they were alternative sin offerings and not replacements. I gather that the context of the Suffering Servant is as a symbol of Israel in exile, when sacrifices could not be made in the Jerusalem Temple. And in the first century CE I gather that the priestly service was viewed by some as being corrupt or ineffective (or a "den of robbers" in Jesus' case). Yet neither context appears to negate the necessity of making sacrificial offerings in accordance with the Torah. In the first, sacrifices will resume when the Exile is over, and in the second, some Christians and Essenes offered sacrifices despite whatever reservations they had about the priesthood or beliefs they had about alternative sin offerings.

In these contexts, I gather the suffering and death of the Suffering Servant and of Jesus were viewed as alternative sacrifices in an imperfect world (exile, corrupt Temple service), in the same way that prayer and charity serve as alternative means of atonement in Judaism in the absence of a Temple, without negating the necessity of making sacrificial offerings in accordance with the Torah.

When sacrifices were offered in ancient times, they were offered as a fulfillment of Biblical commandments. Since there is no longer a Temple, modern religious Jews instead pray or give tzedakah instead to atone for their sins as the korbon would have accomplished. According to Orthodox Judaism, the coming of the messiah will not remove the requirement to keep the 613 commandments, and when the Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will be offered again.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban

So it appears that if you can't (or don't want to) go to the Temple (because it doesn't exist, or you live too far away from it, or you think its service is corrupt), then you can pray and/or give charity and/or believe that Jesus was the Messiah to atone for sin, and at the same time you can also believe in the necessity of making sacrifices in accordance with the Torah.

In other words, it looks to me like prayer, charity, the Suffering Servant and Jesus are alternative (or additional) means of atonement rather than replacements for the Temple service. This is why according to what I view as being the earliest gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) and the earliest Christian history (Acts), Jesus is pro-sacrifice and Christians continue to offer sacrifices after Jesus' death.

But setting aside how prayer, giving charity, and making sin offerings in accordance with the Torah "works" (which equally baffles me), how does belief in Jesus as the Messiah "work"? If you don't believe Jesus' death was a sin offering then it doesn't work (and Jesus judges you accordingly when he returns as a world conquering spiritual being at the End Time), and if you do believe it then your belief somehow activates the efficacy of the sin offering (and Jesus consequently likes you when he returns as a world conquering spiritual being)?

I suppose I could ask how does Jesus know who believes in him and who doesn't, but since I gather he was thought to be equal to God, then he would know via his God-like ability. And the same goes for his death being an alternative sin offering; it "works" via "the power of God," the same way that making sin offerings in accordance with the Torah "works." In other words, it's nonsensical.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

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John2 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:30 pmSo what does it mean in this context that Jesus "died for our sins"? For me it is the same as asking, What does it mean that the Suffering Servant "died for our sins"? Neither figure (the Suffering Servant and Jesus) appears to me to negate the necessity of making sacrifices in accordance with the Torah. So in what sense (or to what degree) then do they serve as sin offerings?
I doubt it was exclusively personal. Rather, it was corporate, and it had to do with ending Israel's tenure under foreign foes:

2 Maccabees 7.37-38: 37 “I, like my brothers, give up body and life for the laws of our fathers, appealing to God to show mercy soon to our nation and by afflictions and plagues to make you confess that he alone is God, 38 and through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty which has justly fallen on our whole nation.”

The problem of the exile and subsequent submission to foreign powers was not the same kind of problem as whatever the sacrificial system was trying to solve (various things, because it evolved over centuries). If the exile was viewed as punishment for not following God's laws well enough, then the restoration from exile and oppression hardly necessarily involves getting rid of the sacrifices which function under God's law; to the contrary, the most natural view would be that they should be restored all the more fully once the exile had truly ended and the foreign powers were out of contention. A sacrifice of the Suffering Servant type is not originally a replacement for the sacrificial system; it is a way of satiating God's wrath so as to allow a full restoration both of it and of the rest of the Israelite polity. That it later became viewed as a possible replacement was probably due to two main factors: (A) the desire to make it easy for gentiles to come into the fold (as per Paul) and (B) a sort of necessity arising from the destruction of the temple.

Or so it seems to me.
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DCHindley
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:59 pmOr so it seems to me.
"So it seems to me."

Sounds like another catch phrase for you, Ben, to add to "I have posted ...!"

DCH :popcorn:
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:12 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:59 pmOr so it seems to me.
"So it seems to me."

Sounds like another catch phrase for you, Ben, to add to "I have posted ...!"

DCH :popcorn:
I did not realize that "I have posted" was my catchphrase, but in retrospect it does make some sense. :D
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Irish1975
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

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John2 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:30 pm So in my view the idea that Jesus' death atoned for sins is early and genuine and was derived largely from Isaiah's Suffering Servant, but how does this atonement work in Christianity? My understanding is that the Suffering Servant figure does not negate the necessity of making sin offerings in accordance with the Torah, and Jesus (in what I consider to be the earliest gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke) and early Christians (in Acts) do not appear to have thought that sacrifice was obsolete.

So what does it mean in this context that Jesus "died for our sins"? For me it is the same as asking, What does it mean that the Suffering Servant "died for our sins"? Neither figure (the Suffering Servant and Jesus) appears to me to negate the necessity of making sacrifices in accordance with the Torah. So in what sense (or to what degree) then do they serve as sin offerings?
I've lately been reading Schweitzer's The Mysticism of the Apostle Paul. Schweitzer approaches the redemption/atonement myth in the Gospels (mainly Mark and Matthew) and Paul as essentially eschatological; that is, he reads these ideas through the lense of Daniel, Enoch, and to a lesser extent the Psalms of Solomon, and the Apocalypses of Ezra and Baruch. Isaiah's suffering servant plays a supporting role in the larger drama. Which if I understand it is this:

1. Jesus Christ is a cosmological event that brings to an end the rule of demons.
2. This means overthrowing the power of the evil one and bringing in the messianic Kingdom.
3. There has to be a pre-messianic tribulation for the elect.
4. Jesus' death, in his own mind (i.e. in gMark, gMatthew), serves the purpose of sparing the elect a share in this tribulation.
5. Somehow (on this point Schweitzer is least convincing) the elect are also thereby forgiven for their sins: a necessary prelude to the Kingdom.
The historic Jesus does not die for humanity as a while, and not for a universal forgiveness of sins, but for a definite number, namely, those who are elect to the Kingdom of God.

From the first, Jesus had held it a possibility that God might dispense with the final tribulation: that is shown by the petition to be spared it in the prayer for the coming of the Kingdom. Now (after the sending forth of the disciples failed to trigger the end times) He is convinced that this prayer has been heard for others but not for himself. He therefore goes up to Jerusalem intent on compelling the rulers of the people to put him to death.
Which would explain why the Gospels' explanation of Pilate's motivation to execute Jesus is so feeble and (for the historically minded such as Paula Frederiksen) unconvincing. Pilate isn't in charge. He is merely a plot device.
The Kingdom cannot come until the pre-Messianic tribulation has taken place. If Jesus suffers a death which God can accept as the equivalent of that tribulation, he can thereby bring in the Kingdom at once.

Only from the eschatological point of view does it become intelligible how Jesus could come to regard his death at one and the same time as an atoning death and a deed which ushers in the Kingdom. But for the light which the idea of pre-Messianic tribulation sheds on his saying about the significance of his suffering and death, they would remain entirely obscure.
I find all this pretty illuminating for gMark and gMatthew. For Paul, it's much more debatable, although I guess we'd have to start with 1 Thessalonians. The weird thing about that epistle is that Paul's own abundant sufferings seem to have absolutely nothing to do with the death of Jesus, the imminence of the End, or the redemption from the wrath to come. The emergence in later epistles of a redemptive and Christ-participative meaning for Paul's own sufferings, of the sufferings of believers generally, is yet to come, and will have a long career after it. But for Schweitzer, historical Christianity is little more than a misreading of the apocalyptic drama envisioned by Jesus and early Paul.

"Christianity is the religion of suffering." Ludwig Feuerbach
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by mlinssen »

It is all bonkers, and average Joe doesn't know anything of all that goes on out here.
For Joe, and his wife Jane, only one thing matters: original sin

Original sin is the gift of Christianity, that makes everyone's life meaningful, intelligible, and doable

If you believe the former, perhaps you shouldn't be reading this because nothing will shake your faith, nothing will turn your belief into true doubt: as an orthodox Christian you passed the litmus test of Churchianity, that teaches you that you were created and born perfect, after God's image, yet that original sin makes you bad to the bone (while safely ignoring the question: if God didn't give you that original sin, then where does it come from)?
Your Jesus died for you and took away your sins, yet somehow still you are in debt, still you owe someone, and only if you do good - and whatever good is, is up to your peers - you might have a chance at an afterlife in heaven. Hell they guarantee you, but heaven is a carrot dangling on a very long and thin stick.
And you believe that, you want to embrace that, because it gives you the answer to that one question that puzzles us all: this entire world is ruled by punishment and reward, all of it. It's how we raise and treat our pets, our children, our colleagues, friends and family, and ourselves.
We all like reward, no one likes punishment. Negative as we are, a big theme in our life is not happiness and bliss, but suffering and drama - we don't occupy ourselves with the former, yet only with the latter - while taking the former for granted. Why not the other way around? That is something for some other time, perhaps - back to the topic at hand

To you Christians, you who passed the litmus test, this all works slightly yet essentially different: if you get punished, in any form, you will be punished in peace, because you "know" that it is because you're a sinner at heart. No one wonders when they are rewarded, although some might see the reward of others as punishment for themselves, yet whenever there's drama in this world that affects us, we struggle with it: why that drama, why us? Why do we get punished, what did we do to deserve it? Not you, not you Christian: you know. Christianity "puts you in control"

Not really, of course: the orthodox Christian doesn't have the answers to that either, the orthodox Christian doesn't know anything either, but he has an excuse, and fully embraces it: original sin. And then, just like the IS of Thomas promises at the very end of logion 2, in the Greek version handed down via P. Oxy 65416, he rests...and finds peace.

Original sin gives the Christians peace of mind, it answers their, and our, most important question: why all this suffering, why all this drama? Why me?
John2
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:

A sacrifice of the Suffering Servant type is not originally a replacement for the sacrificial system; it is a way of satiating God's wrath so as to allow a full restoration both of it and of the rest of the Israelite polity. That it later became viewed as a possible replacement was probably due to two main factors: (A) the desire to make it easy for gentiles to come into the fold (as per Paul) and (B) a sort of necessity arising from the destruction of the temple.

Alright, but what does it mean that Jesus "died for our sins" in a pre-70 CE Jewish context, given that (in my view) Jesus was pro-sacrifice and Christians offered sacrifices (apparently including Nazirite sin offerings) after his death?


Num. 6:1-18:

And the Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and tell them that if a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite ... Now this is the law of the Nazirite when his time of separation is complete: He must be brought to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, and he is to present ... an unblemished year-old female lamb as a sin offering ... Then at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the Nazirite is to shave his consecrated head ...



Cf. Acts 21:23-26:

There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved ... So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

If Jesus' death didn't negate the necessity of making Nazirite sin offerings, then what sins did it cover? Was Jesus' death thought of as being more along the lines of what you said about 2 Maccabees?

I doubt it was exclusively personal. Rather, it was corporate, and it had to do with ending Israel's tenure under foreign foes:
2 Maccabees 7.37-38: 37 “I, like my brothers, give up body and life for the laws of our fathers, appealing to God to show mercy soon to our nation and by afflictions and plagues to make you confess that he alone is God, 38 and through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty which has justly fallen on our whole nation.”

This makes sense for the Suffering Servant and the Maccabees, but how was Jesus' death an appeal to God "to show mercy to our nation"? I gather Jesus was all about the coming of God's wrath, rather than the ending of it. Now I"m confused. Jesus was thought to have "died for our sins" but was pro-sacrifice (including presumably sin offerings) and Christians made sin offerings after his death. I feel like i"m back to square one again.
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by davidmartin »

The Odes make no mention of the messiah dying for sins, yet manage to speak consistently about salvation
In them the messiah simply brings life which overcomes death, there is no wrath of God to be pacified or original sin to be undone
I see these and atonement ideas as a secondary layer, but the original layer is still there - since to any modern Christian despite whatever else they believe Jesus brings life as well which is why the Odes are kind of still relevant and usable
This is a multi-layered tradition i recon it's a bit of a wild goose chase in thinking certain later layers are more original than they really were
The reason i think Jesus and early Christians are portrayed as pro-sacrifice is simply a desire to make them appear completely righteous against accusations being made (Celsus, etc) and the pressure coming in from marcion and his mates. There's other motivations as well. The Odes spiritualise sacrifice in a way that could be practiced by Jew or gentile
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:04 pm Ben wrote:
A sacrifice of the Suffering Servant type is not originally a replacement for the sacrificial system; it is a way of satiating God's wrath so as to allow a full restoration both of it and of the rest of the Israelite polity. That it later became viewed as a possible replacement was probably due to two main factors: (A) the desire to make it easy for gentiles to come into the fold (as per Paul) and (B) a sort of necessity arising from the destruction of the temple.
Alright, but what does it mean that Jesus "died for our sins" in a pre-70 CE Jewish context, given that (in my view) Jesus was pro-sacrifice and Christians offered sacrifices (apparently including Nazirite sin offerings) after his death?
The sacrifices are not the solution to the sins which were perceived to have led to God's displeasure with the nation to the point of driving it into exile and handing it over to foreign control. You are mixing the two in your mind and seem unable to extricate them.
This makes sense for the Suffering Servant and the Maccabees, but how was Jesus' death an appeal to God "to show mercy to our nation"?
In exactly the same way (at least in the opinion of enough to count).
I gather Jesus was all about the coming of God's wrath, rather than the ending of it.
These two things are not in opposition. God's wrath is already built up; it has to be appeased, and only then can it "end." (Nobody thought that God was simply going to forget.) So it is going to come, regardless. There is no being "for" or "against" it. Once it comes, however, make sure you are on the side of the angels. Make sure you are not one of those upon which it will fall. How? By standing for God's laws (including the sacrifices, like the Maccabees did) and so on. Jesus "dying for your sins" in this context does not mean that you no longer have to sacrifice for sin in general; rather, it means that you will not be one of those paying the price for the specific sins which led to the exile and oppression.

(I think you are interpreting the relevant passages ontologically instead of historically.)

If it helps, look at it this way. What is the sacrifice for intentional sin? .... There is none:

Numbers 15.27-31: 27 “‘Also, if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat as a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray by an unintentional sin, making atonement for him so that he may be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for the native among the sons of Israel and for the stranger who resides among them, for one who does anything wrong unintentionally. 30 But the person who does wrong defiantly, whether he is a native or a stranger, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Since he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”

If you sin unintentionally, make the sacrifice. If you sin intentionally and then later repent... throw yourself on the mercy of God (like David in Psalm 51), because there is no remedy within your grasp. You are cut off from your people.

The sins which led to exile, then, are certainly in the "intentional" category. There is no sacrifice for them. But maybe if we suffer enough, maybe if some of us suffer enough for multiple people (Jesus, the Maccabean martyrs, and so on), God will turn away his wrath with respect to these sins for which there is no sacrificial remedy.
John2
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Re: How Does Christianity Work?

Post by John2 »

Does Jesus himself ever say anything about dying "for our sins"? I can't think of anything offhand, only about dying and being resurrected. And if Jesus doesn't say anything about dying "for our sins," then maybe the idea (however convoluted) was (as David put it) "a secondary layer."
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