Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 am

maryhelena wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
No mention in that quote from Loman that the Jewish-Christian messianic community had historicized a celestial crucified christ figure - Pauline or otherwise.
That wasn't my point - my point was the gospels developed separate to the Pauline texts.

Michael Hoffman's summary of

The Fabricated Paul: Early Christianity in the Twilight


Hermann Detering (1995)
The Catholic church didn't create the NT books, but redacted them strategically to unite the Petrine Jewish-Christians camp with the Pauline Marcionites (Gentile Christian) camp, resulting in a durable church system. Paul was a reworked Simon the Magician. Simon/Paul had leprosy. Simon/Paul taught gnostic-type anti-cosmos transcendence of and freedom from 'the law' through grace -- such transcendence being 'lawlessness'.

Initially, the Petrine Jewish-Christian camp, or the Petrine Jewish-Christian Catholic Church, tried ways of disparaging Simon/Paul, the proto-Paulines, Marcion, and the Marcionites; Jewish apocalypses so disparage Simon and his anti-law, anti-creator gospel of freedom. But ultimately, the Jewish-Christian camp, or the Catholic Church which forced together the Petrine Jewish-Christian and Pauline gnostic (Gentile Christian) camps, redacted 'Simon' into the Roman-named 'Paul', making the Paul figure compatible with Jewish-Christian faith.

John the Baptist's best follower was the historical Simon of Samaria. Cerdo (in Rome) was a follower of Simon, then Marcion was a follower of Simon after Cerdo. Marcion (from Pontus) doesn't write of Simon (from Samaria), but of Paul. The Roman name 'Paul' means 'small' which the Simonians and later Marcionites mapped to the idea of election by grace rather than law (p. 146). Simon was the "standing, stable, stationary one" (alluding to the timeless unchanging divine realm).

The work involved not invention, so much as redaction of two large groups to hide the fighting between them and pull them all together. Imagine having to join together into an effective congregation the large, popular camps of both Peter and Simon -- redaction of Simon into the NT Paul was needed, to enable this merging of two popular opposed camps. Like the Roman empire, the strategy of the Catholic Church was to forcefully integrate and coercively assimilate those who are opposed, not to annihilate them.


maryhelena
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:19 am

Sure, but theomise wrote about a historicizing process..." I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition."

A historicizing process that was "tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition".That sounded like the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory to me - maybe it was something else. Perhaps theomise might clarify.

(sorry about having to delete previous reply - problems with software reply......)
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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MrMacSon
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:58 pm

maryhelena wrote:Sure, but theomise wrote about a historicizing process..." I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition."
Which is why I thought Loman's & Detering's commentary was pertinent.
maryhelena wrote:.
That sounded like the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory to me - that the Jewish-Christian messianic community had historicized a celestial crucified christ figure - Pauline or otherwise; maybe it was something else. Perhaps theomise might clarify.
I don't get hung up on the specifics of trying to interpret what the ancient writers meant or might have meant as I think lots changed through each of centuries ie. among each of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th centuries (and even beyond)*.

I think its likely some of the angel & celestial theology began BCE.


* eg. this post today by Huller on another thread: The Lord Sent to my lord jUPSalms. David as Model for Jesus
  • Stephan Huller wrote:Count me as one who doesn't think that David was a model for Jesus originally. Certainly Tertullian and probably Irenaeus before him tried to shape the narrative as such. But there is clear evidence that David and Solomon were anti-types. The Testimony of Truth from Nag Hammadi being only the most explicit testimony against the proposition. If Jesus was superior to Moses he was certainly superior to David. I bet I can cite more antitheses or argument against the proposition than for the proposition.

    I'll start with the obvious theoretical difficulty. If the heretical tradition started with Simon Magus (Justin) or Dositheus (Hippolytus) and this relationship with Christianity is consistently argued to be 'right at the beginning' of the religion, it would be implausible to argue that a Samaritan would have written a gospel or joined a movement that extolled David. The Samaritans don't have kind things to say about David and Solomon. Moses yes, David no. And what is David anyway but a poor man's (and ultimately mythical) Moses.

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DCHindley
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by DCHindley » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:07 pm

MrMacSon wrote:On page 50, Hermann Detering summarizes the Dutch Radical AD Loman's 1881 proposal:
"Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic-messianic [Pauline] community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic [Petrine] community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

"Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community [then?] had Paul as its representative and the [then?]Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."
and in the preceding post Peter Kirby posted this link http://peterkirby.com/dialogue-concerni ... stems.html
I don't know if this is common knowledge, but besides the Dutch Radical web pages, Deterring also hosts and manages a set of Marxist web pages. This may have been lost on some, but I had posted a set of Marxist works by Freddie Engels and Karl Kautsky, (along with that of the Monist Al Kalthoff) which develop ideas proposed by Bruno Bauer, who was the poster boy for the Dutch Radicals. Read them and understand how some of them came to believe that the Jesus story was a myth developed out of pure ideas, and then historicized. They really put a lot of thought into their analysis, and a modern reader may need to brush up on their Plato and familiarity with Greco-Roman history to follow it all, but it is still possible to see occasions where they are clearly grasping at straws and their vision is obscured by the mirrors and puffs of smoke issued by their romantic passion for utopia. :whistling:

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Cheers. Posted in threads on this site?

maryhelena
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:15 am

DCHindley wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:On page 50, Hermann Detering summarizes the Dutch Radical AD Loman's 1881 proposal:
"Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic-messianic [Pauline] community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic [Petrine] community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

"Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community [then?] had Paul as its representative and the [then?]Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."
and in the preceding post Peter Kirby posted this link http://peterkirby.com/dialogue-concerni ... stems.html
I don't know if this is common knowledge, but besides the Dutch Radical web pages, Deterring also hosts and manages a set of Marxist web pages. This may have been lost on some, but I had posted a set of Marxist works by Freddie Engels and Karl Kautsky, (along with that of the Monist Al Kalthoff) which develop ideas proposed by Bruno Bauer, who was the poster boy for the Dutch Radicals. Read them and understand how some of them came to believe that the Jesus story was a myth developed out of pure ideas, and then historicized. They really put a lot of thought into their analysis, and a modern reader may need to brush up on their Plato and familiarity with Greco-Roman history to follow it all, but it is still possible to see occasions where they are clearly grasping at straws and their vision is obscured by the mirrors and puffs of smoke issued by their romantic passion for utopia. :whistling:

DCH
Robert Price on a review of a book by Bauer

"....the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... aesars.htm

Well now, if that is what theomise is alluding too .... :thumbup:

Far better to deal with the whole of human reality during the historical time stamp of the gospels than limit oneself to the theological imaginings of that age - as is done by the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory.

Roman occupation of Judea was everyday stuff, in your face stuff. Theological musings, however-much these might give succour to the soul, would not stifle the inherent right, the inherent need, of all men to live free from oppression. (Yep, been there, seen that.....and as Mandela is quoted as saying: '“Any man or institution that tries to rob me of my dignity will lose because I will not part with it at any price or under any pressure.”)

Now now, David, surely your not hung up on ideas of 'Reds under the beds'...... :shock:
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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DCHindley
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by DCHindley » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:13 am

maryhelena wrote:Robert Price on a review of a book by Bauer

"....the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... aesars.htm

Well now, if that is what theomise is alluding too .... :thumbup:
Even though it makes no sense ... :confusedsmiley: The term "Zeitgeist" is a modern German invention, coined to described the "spirit of the age." Price is saying, to paraphrase, "the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the spirit of the age." Nowadays, the term "Z" is used to describe how the spirit of the age has created great leaders and heroes. Price is perhaps suggesting that what was produced in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE was a legend about a great leader/hero, rather than a historical leader/hero who was shaped by it. The term has been hijacked!
Now now, David, surely your not hung up on ideas of 'Reds under the beds'...... :shock:
Not at all, but if anyone was hesitant to read Karl Kautsky because he's a "red" or A. Kalthoff because he was a weirdo peacenik ultra liberal proto-Unitarian, miss the point that they actually did one of the finest research jobs ever to get to their conclusions. It is not simply the product of wishful thinking, which appears to be the motivation behind a good deal of modern Jesus Mythicism. In hindsight, a hundred years later, we might see some flaws in their thinking that they could not because the spirit of their age blinded them to it, but hindsight is always 20/20.

If Christian theology and ethics have thwarted one's personal psychological development to the point of serious irritation (FWIW, it has affected mine, so this is not meant as a criticism of "free thinking"), waving Jesus away as a myth seems like wishful thinking.

If anyone wants to believe that folks today wouldn't or shouldn't fall for such a myth, think again. The one who believes in Christian theology (and many don't even really understand it, but have been socialized in it since birth and pick up its main assumptions unconsciously), are ready to punish you, jail you, brand you with infamy, and even kill you, if they felt it would help the cause of "Jesus" or his good news of salvation.

You yourself may be falling for the myth of the mythical Jesus to make bad men (and women) with power and guns "go away." How's that Beatles song go?
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Dream on ...

DCH

maryhelena
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:25 am

DCHindley wrote:
maryhelena wrote:Robert Price on a review of a book by Bauer

"....the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... aesars.htm

Well now, if that is what theomise is alluding too .... :thumbup:
Even though it makes no sense ... :confusedsmiley: The term "Zeitgeist" is a modern German invention, coined to described the "spirit of the age." Price is saying, to paraphrase, "the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the spirit of the age." Nowadays, the term "Z" is used to describe how the spirit of the age has created great leaders and heroes. Price is perhaps suggesting that what was produced in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE was a legend about a great leader/hero, rather than a historical leader/hero who was shaped by it. The term has been hijacked!
Now now, David, surely your not hung up on ideas of 'Reds under the beds'...... :shock:
Not at all, but if anyone was hesitant to read Karl Kautsky because he's a "red" or A. Kalthoff because he was a weirdo peacenik ultra liberal proto-Unitarian, miss the point that they actually did one of the finest research jobs ever to get to their conclusions. It is not simply the product of wishful thinking, which appears to be the motivation behind a good deal of modern Jesus Mythicism. In hindsight, a hundred years later, we might see some flaws in their thinking that they could not because the spirit of their age blinded them to it, but hindsight is always 20/20.

If Christian theology and ethics have thwarted one's personal psychological development to the point of serious irritation (FWIW, it has affected mine, so this is not meant as a criticism of "free thinking"), waving Jesus away as a myth seems like wishful thinking.

If anyone wants to believe that folks today wouldn't or shouldn't fall for such a myth, think again. The one who believes in Christian theology (and many don't even really understand it, but have been socialized in it since birth and pick up its main assumptions unconsciously), are ready to punish you, jail you, brand you with infamy, and even kill you, if they felt it would help the cause of "Jesus" or his good news of salvation.

You yourself may be falling for the myth of the mythical Jesus to make bad men (and women) with power and guns "go away." How's that Beatles song go?
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Dream on ...

DCH

All men dream, but not equally.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds,
wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

T. E. Lawrence

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

ghost
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by ghost » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:31 am

theomise wrote:Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus
Here's what Carotta says about this:

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html
The political changes which occurred with Vespasian and Titus after the Jewish war, such as the necessity of integrating Jews into the empire, led to the development of a cult and texts ad usum Iudaeorum: Divus Julius became the Messiah. Adding quotes from the Biblia Iudaica, which replaced the classical one, helped to make the most Roman of all histories a Jewish story.

theomise
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Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by theomise » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:35 pm

maryhelena wrote:
DCHindley wrote:
maryhelena wrote:Robert Price on a review of a book by Bauer

"....the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... aesars.htm

Well now, if that is what theomise is alluding too .... :thumbup:
Even though it makes no sense ... :confusedsmiley: The term "Zeitgeist" is a modern German invention, coined to described the "spirit of the age." Price is saying, to paraphrase, "the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the spirit of the age." Nowadays, the term "Z" is used to describe how the spirit of the age has created great leaders and heroes. Price is perhaps suggesting that what was produced in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE was a legend about a great leader/hero, rather than a historical leader/hero who was shaped by it. The term has been hijacked!
Now now, David, surely your not hung up on ideas of 'Reds under the beds'...... :shock:
Not at all, but if anyone was hesitant to read Karl Kautsky because he's a "red" or A. Kalthoff because he was a weirdo peacenik ultra liberal proto-Unitarian, miss the point that they actually did one of the finest research jobs ever to get to their conclusions. It is not simply the product of wishful thinking, which appears to be the motivation behind a good deal of modern Jesus Mythicism. In hindsight, a hundred years later, we might see some flaws in their thinking that they could not because the spirit of their age blinded them to it, but hindsight is always 20/20.

If Christian theology and ethics have thwarted one's personal psychological development to the point of serious irritation (FWIW, it has affected mine, so this is not meant as a criticism of "free thinking"), waving Jesus away as a myth seems like wishful thinking.

If anyone wants to believe that folks today wouldn't or shouldn't fall for such a myth, think again. The one who believes in Christian theology (and many don't even really understand it, but have been socialized in it since birth and pick up its main assumptions unconsciously), are ready to punish you, jail you, brand you with infamy, and even kill you, if they felt it would help the cause of "Jesus" or his good news of salvation.

You yourself may be falling for the myth of the mythical Jesus to make bad men (and women) with power and guns "go away." How's that Beatles song go?
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Dream on ...

DCH

All men dream, but not equally.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds,
wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

T. E. Lawrence

You can't mix T. E. Lawrence with Yeats, you silly thing. :D

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