Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by Stephan Huller »

But that's what the Flavians want you to do: to read the gospel alongside Josephus's writings and alongside the OT so you think the gospel is set in a Jewish instead of Roman setting. Doesn't make the original setting Jewish. That's how the Flavian mind trick works.
Really? You have any friends who are Flavians? You don't even know Flavor Flav let alone a Flavian. The certainty with which you guys express yourselves is simply astounding. Not 'maybe' nor 'perhaps' - it's like what you're suggesting is as obvious as the sky is blue. Funny no professional scholar sees it your way.

[BIG PICTURE NOT SHOWN - sorry but this is getting annoying, Stephan]
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

ghost wrote:
maryhelena wrote:The gospel JC story is not history; it is a mythologizing of history; an interpretation of history; salvation history. History viewed through a Jewish philosophical and a prophetic lens.
--------------------------------------

While a lot of what Josephus wrote re Antigonus cannot be historically verified ie biting off the ear of his uncle Hyrcanus, his writing is what we have. All one can do is put the Josephan account/stories alongside the gospel account and acknowledge the reflection of the Josephan account/stories within the gospel story.
But that's what the Flavians want you to do: to read the gospel alongside Josephus's writings and alongside the OT so you think the gospel is set in a Jewish instead of Roman setting. Doesn't make the original setting Jewish. That's how the Flavian mind trick works.
Instead of attempting to derail this thread with the Roman conspiracy ideas - why not set up your own thread and draw up a chart like the one I have done above? That's the way to do this sort of thing......

Richard Carrier: (2 years ago) “Useful chart. Good job including the citations to everything (shout out to everyone: that’s how you do this sort of thing). Thanks.”
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

To take this thread back to the OP this quote from 'theomise' should be kept in focus:

theomise: Whether or not the surface story contains supernatural elements is beside the point. We are talking about fables or parables in which the political concerns of the day are reflected in the sayings and doings of deliberately two-dimensional characters.

The allegorist offers a highly interpretive ("biased") presentation of the issues that can only be understood on the deepest level given the reader's pre-existent familiarity with the historical context. Of course, the surface level of the work can also be enjoyed for its own sake as a children's story.
Early readers of the gospel story, with history clearly in view, would be able to 'read' the gospel story as a political allegory. The political allegory, the reflection of historical events within the gospel story, allowed the gospel story to have a social/political meaning for early Jewish christians. From that core of historicity a theological/philosophical framework was developed.

As the years passed, once the history faded from view, once memory dimmed, then the gospel' political allegorical interpretation of history would begin to be viewed as 'history' - with all the assumptions, from both the JC historicists and the Carrier-Doherty mythicists, that this generated: One side opting for a historical JC and the other side opting for a Pauline celestial christ figure historicized. Neither position is viewing the gospel story through a lst century political lens. Consequently, both sides have boxed themselves into a reading of the gospel story that denies the gospel writers the political framework, the political canvas, from which they created their Jesus story.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

Political allegory and the end of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

ALLUSIONS TO THE END OF THE HASMONEAN DYNASTY
IN PESHER NAHUM (4Q169)


Gregory L. Doudna

And so it seems to me that the wicked ruler of these texts reflects
Antigonus Mattathias, and that the Lion of Wrath alludes to Mark
Antony who hung up alive Antigonus and perhaps other members of
Antigonus’s regime similarly unremarked in Josephus, and that key
Qumran pesharim such as Pesher Habakkuk, Pesher Psalms A, Pesher
Nahum, Pesher Hosea B and others all allude in their various ways to
the downfall of this last Hasmonean ruler, Antigonus Mattathias.

http://www.scrollery.com/?p=3

pdf of article on the above link.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
theomise
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by theomise »

maryhelena wrote:To take this thread back to the OP this quote from 'theomise' should be kept in focus:

theomise: Whether or not the surface story contains supernatural elements is beside the point. We are talking about fables or parables in which the political concerns of the day are reflected in the sayings and doings of deliberately two-dimensional characters.

The allegorist offers a highly interpretive ("biased") presentation of the issues that can only be understood on the deepest level given the reader's pre-existent familiarity with the historical context. Of course, the surface level of the work can also be enjoyed for its own sake as a children's story.
Early readers of the gospel story, with history clearly in view, would be able to 'read' the gospel story as a political allegory. The political allegory, the reflection of historical events within the gospel story, allowed the gospel story to have a social/political meaning for early Jewish christians. From that core of historicity a theological/philosophical framework was developed.

As the years passed, once the history faded from view, once memory dimmed, then the gospel' political allegorical interpretation of history would begin to be viewed as 'history' - with all the assumptions, from both the JC historicists and the Carrier-Doherty mythicists, that this generated: One side opting for a historical JC and the other side opting for a Pauline celestial christ figure historicized. Neither position is viewing the gospel story through a lst century political lens. Consequently, both sides have boxed themselves into a reading of the gospel story that denies the gospel writers the political framework, the political canvas, from which they created their Jesus story.
Hi maryhelena,

Just to clarify my own position, and how it differs from yours:
  • 1) We agree on the heavy use of political allegory in the gospel stories.
    2) However, I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition.
    3) Hence, I see the politically-allegorical character of the gospel stories as less important to understanding Christian origins than you do.
Consider: exactly how common is the proposed phenomenon of a religion sprouting from some grandiose take on political history? It would seem to be rare, and not in keeping with what we know about the social psychology of cult formation.

The more familiar formula for cult formation is: a charismatic con-man -- looking to make money or get laid or scratch some other egocentric itch -- convinces a bunch of people to reject evil mainstream society and join in some sort of 'communal living' arrangement. If the cult catches on, perhaps the founder is later deified and his checkered biography suppressed. Perhaps later a new and utterly fictional biography is written for doctrinal purposes.

So, in so far as Christianity has a historical basis in a founding figure, that would seem to be the most obvious pattern to consider.

I'm not saying your thesis is impossible. Just that I know of no other examples of religions forming that way. The fact is, people who are attracted to joining cults tend not to be well-read intellectuals with strong opinions on obscure historical figures. They tend, rather, to be naive, possibly Schizotypal chumps who are psychologically comforted by the highly structured, esoteric and ritualistic lifestyle the cult provides.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

theomise wrote: Hi maryhelena,

Just to clarify my own position, and how it differs from yours:
  • 1) We agree on the heavy use of political allegory in the gospel stories.
Yep, agreed.
2) However, I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition.
That looks like the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory - a theory I don't regard as having relevance for the gospel Jesus story. i.e. a historicized Pauline celestial crucified christ figure is simply more imagination placed on top of an already imaginative scenario. There is no way to establish such a scenario. It's all in the mind of believers.

3) Hence, I see the politically-allegorical character of the gospel stories as less important to understanding Christian origins than you do.[/list]
Surely, if it's early christians origins that we are seeking, then any social/political reflections within the gospel story are possible roadways to that goal? Why put political allegory in the gospel story if it does not have significant relevance to the story>

Consider: exactly how common is the proposed phenomenon of a religion sprouting from some grandiose take on political history? It would seem to be rare, and not in keeping with what we know about the social psychology of cult formation.
But is that not what the OT has done? Israel's history is always centre stage.

The more familiar formula for cult formation is: a charismatic con-man -- looking to make money or get laid or scratch some other egocentric itch -- convinces a bunch of people to reject evil mainstream society and join in some sort of 'communal living' arrangement. If the cult catches on, perhaps the founder is later deified and his checkered biography suppressed. Perhaps later a new and utterly fictional biography is written for doctrinal purposes.
Perhaps - but perhaps not also. The NT story is set within the culture/tradition of the OT. That is a culture/tradition that placed prime importance upon it's social/political context. God 'saves' his people, etc. Land and Kings and Priests, physical reality, was where God did his work. Yes, Pauline theology/philosophy places emphasis upon spiritual matters, the Jerusalem above. But that emphasis did not, and cannot, rule out emphasis also upon the Jerusalem below. i.e. upon earthly matters. Emphasis can shift in relation to time and place - and context. Paul' context is one thing - the gospel context something else. Why would one want to choose between them instead of allowing both contexts to function?

So, in so far as Christianity has a historical basis in a founding figure, that would seem to be the most obvious pattern to consider.
But that is a basis that has no possibility of being historically established. It take one nowhere in the search for early christian origins.

I'm not saying your thesis is impossible. Just that I know of no other examples of religions forming that way. The fact is, people who are attracted to joining cults tend not to be well-read intellectuals with strong opinions on obscure historical figures. They tend, rather, to be naive, possibly Schizotypal chumps who are psychologically comforted by the highly structured, esoteric and ritualistic lifestyle the cult provides.
It's not a question of 'religions forming'. It's attempting to discern the social/political framework within which that religion took hold. Dating gospel manuscripts, even to the 2nd century, does not change the social/political setting of the gospel story. A social/political setting of Judea under Roman occupation. A christian origin story set within a context of Roman occupation.

I think the two scenarios: the historical Jesus assumption and the Carrier-Doherty mythicist
assumption, are both boxed into their respective corners. Neither are able to take on board the political allegory within the gospel story. 1) because it compromises their theory. 2) it means they both have to acknowledge that the other side does have something of value to offer in the Jesus debate. Both sides have to strive for a win/win situation - thus allowing dignity not animosity to prevail.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:
theomise wrote:.
2) However, I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition.
That looks like the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory - a theory I don't regard as having relevance for the gospel Jesus story. i.e. a historicized Pauline celestial crucified christ figure is simply more imagination placed on top of an already imaginative scenario. There is no way to establish such a scenario.
Not necessarily - the Dutch Radicals (or at least some of them) felt the Pauline texts developed separate from the Canonical gospels.

theomise's proposition of a "sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition" would seem to concur with that.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

MrMacSon wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
theomise wrote:.
2) However, I see the historicized gospel Jesus as largely a 2nd-century literary creation - a sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition.
That looks like the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory - a theory I don't regard as having relevance for the gospel Jesus story. i.e. a historicized Pauline celestial crucified christ figure is simply more imagination placed on top of an already imaginative scenario. There is no way to establish such a scenario.
Not necessarily - the Dutch Radicals (or at least some of them) felt the Pauline texts developed separate from the Canonical gospels.

theomise's proposition of a "sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition" would seem to concur with that.
So, gospel texts developed without a connection to the Pauline celestial crucified christ figure? Any links to Dutch Radical scholars upholding that position?
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
... the Dutch Radicals (or at least some of them) felt the Pauline texts developed separate from the Canonical gospels.

theomise's proposition of a "sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition" would seem to concur with that.
So, gospel texts developed without a connection to the Pauline celestial crucified christ figure? Any links to Dutch Radical scholars upholding that position?
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... oman#p1112 (and the following post) -

  • On page 50, Hermann Detering summarizes the Dutch Radical AD Loman's 1881 proposal:
    "Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic-messianic [Pauline] community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic [Petrine] community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

    "Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community [then?] had Paul as its representative and the [then?]Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."

and in the preceding post Peter Kirby posted this link http://peterkirby.com/dialogue-concerni ... stems.html
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Political allegory in the 'exoteric' legend of Jesus

Post by maryhelena »

MrMacSon wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
... the Dutch Radicals (or at least some of them) felt the Pauline texts developed separate from the Canonical gospels.

theomise's proposition of a "sort of Josephan fan-fiction tacked on to a pre-existing cult tradition" would seem to concur with that.
So, gospel texts developed without a connection to the Pauline celestial crucified christ figure? Any links to Dutch Radical scholars upholding that position?
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... oman#p1112 (and the following post) -

  • On page 50, Hermann Detering summarizes the Dutch Radical AD Loman's 1881 proposal:
    "Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic-messianic [Pauline] community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic [Petrine] community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

    "Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community [then?] had Paul as its representative and the [then?]Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."

and in the preceding post Peter Kirby posted this link http://peterkirby.com/dialogue-concerni ... stems.html
No mention in that quote from Loman that the Jewish-Christian messianic community had historicized a celestial crucified christ figure - Pauline or otherwise.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Post Reply