Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by davidmartin »

a wacky theory. Supposing 'the cave' has more of a Samaritan backdrop it might tie in with Acts 7 where Abraham's field and burial cave is located in Shechem. That would be an ideal spot for the Samaritan messiah to be born. In Acts 7:16 'the tomb' is the cave itself then a few verses later 'At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child'. So a birth is mentioned very near a cave.
hakeem
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by hakeem »

It must be noted that Origen in "Against Celsus" appears to be aware of birth stories of Jesus in gMatthew, and gLuke however when he mentioned the cave the birth story he only stated that it was recorded in the Gospels of the disciples.

Origen's' Against Celsus
It is probable, therefore, that since at the birth of Jesus a multitude of the heavenly host, as Luke records, and as I believe, praised God, saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good-will towards men..

Origen's Against Celsus
And that it was from intentional malice that Celsus did not quote this prophecy, is clear to me from this, that although he makes numerous quotations from the Gospel according to Matthew, as of the star that appeared at the birth of Christ, and other miraculous occurrences, he has made no mention at all of this

Celsus' Against Celsus
But, moreover, taking the history, contained in the Gospel according to Matthew, of our Lord's descent into Egypt, he refuses to believe the miraculous circumstances attending it

Please Notice the phrase is in plural "GospelS of the DiscipleS".

Origen's Against Celsus
With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born

Since there is only one Gospel of a supposed disciple [Matthew] in the NT with a birth narrative this implies there were other Gospels attributed to the other disciples not found in the NT with cave birth stories.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

Doesn't Justin also say that Mithras is like Jesus? Wasn't he born from a cave too?
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes there are reports of Mithras being born from a cave https://www.jstor.org/stable/4427315?seq=1 That's why the gospel story was likely changed. https://books.google.com/books?id=25_SO ... &q&f=false Too much like Mithras. Notice also the appearance of 'magi' at a cave of a God whose chief disciple is 'the Rock.' Too much.

Before people jump all over the 'Christ is Mithras' idea. The birth narrative is later than the original gospel. Whoever was trying to introduce these myths did so AFTER earliest Christianity was established. Nevertheless it is a good argument that 'the historical Jesus' was developed through Mithras. Certainly. Notice also that Justin testifies that Perseus was born through a virgin, I believe (from memory). As the book I cite notes, there seems to be a relationship between Perseus and one strand of the Mithras tradition.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

It's been so long that I don't remember any of this 'spoils of Samaria' stuff very well. All I am clear of is that in Against the Jews and Against Marcion (which both likely goes back to Justin) we read:
Not that this indeed is of the nature of a sign, nor is His "refusing the evil; "for this, too, is only a characteristic of infancy. But His destined capture of the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria before the king of Assyria is no doubt a wonderful sign. Keep to the measure of His age, and seek the purport of the prophecy, and give back also to the truth of the gospel what you (Marcion) have taken away from it in the lateness of your heresy, and the prophecy at once becomes intelligible and declares its own accomplishment. Let those eastern magi wait on the new-born Christ, presenting to Him, (although) in His infancy, their gifts of gold and frankincense; and surely an Infant will have received the riches of Damascus without a battle, and unarmed. For besides the generally known fact, that the riches of the East, that is to say, its strength and resources, usually consist of gold and spices, it is certainly true of the Creator, that He makes gold the riches of the other nations also. Thus He says by Zechariah: "And Judah shall also fight at Jerusalem and shall gather together all the wealth of the nations round about, gold and silver." Moreover, respecting that gift of gold, David also says: "And there shall be given to Him of the gold of Arabia; " and again: "The kings of Arabia and Saba shall offer to Him gifts." For the East generally regarded the magi as kings; and Damascus was anciently deemed to belong to Arabia, before it was transferred to Syrophoenicia on the division of the Syrias (by Rome). Its riches Christ then received, when He received the tokens thereof in the gold and spices; while the spoils of Samaria were the magi themselves. These having discovered Him and honoured Him with their gifts, and on beaded knee adored Him as their God and King, through the witness of the star which led their way and guided them, became the spoils of Samaria, that is to say, of idolatry, because, as it is easy enough to see, they believed in Christ. He designated idolatry under the name of Samaria, as that city was shameful for its idolatry, through which it had then revolted from God from the days of king Jeroboam. Nor is this an unusual manner for the Creator, (in His Scriptures) figuratively to employ names of places as a metaphor derived from the analogy of their sins. Thus He calls the Chief men of the Jews "rulers of Sodom," and the nation itself "people of Gomorrah." And in another passage He also says: "Thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite," by reason of their kindred iniquity; although He had actually called them His sons: "I have nourished and brought up children."So likewise by Egypt is sometimes understood, in His sense, the whole world as being marked out by superstition and a curse By a similar usage Babylon also in our (St.) John is a figure of the city of Rome, as being like (Babylon) great and proud in royal power, and warring down the saints of God. Now it was in accordance with this style that He called the magi by the name of Samaritans, because (as we have said) they had practised idolatry as did the Samaritans. Moreover, by the phrase "before or against the king of Assyria," understand "against Herod; "against whom the magi then opposed themselves, when they refrained from carrying him back word concerning Christ, whom he was seeking to destroy. [Tertullian Adv Marc 3.13 .6, 8, 10 KROYMANN Aem., CCL 1 (1954), (p.526, l.26) BP1]

Keep to the limit of (the infant's) age, and inquire into the sense of the prediction; nay, rather, repay to truth what you are unwilling to credit her with, and the prophecy becomes intelligible by the relation of its fulfilment. Let those Eastern magi be believed, dowering with gold and incense the infancy of Christ as a king; and the infant has received "the power of Damascus" without battle and arms. For, besides the fact that it is known to all that the "power"--for that is the "strength"--of the East is wont to abound in gold and odours, certain it is that the divine Scriptures regard "gold" as constituting the "power" also of all other nations; as it says through Zechariah: "And Judah keepeth guard at Jerusalem, and shall amass all the vigour of the surrounding peoples, gold and silver." For of this gift of "gold" David likewise says, "And to Him shall be given of the gold of Arabia; " and again, "The kings of the Arabs and Saba shall bring Him gifts." For the East, on the one hand, generally held the magi (to be) kings; and Damascus, on the other hand, used formerly to be reckoned to Arabia before it was transferred into Syrophoenicia on the division of the Syrias: the "power" whereof Christ then "received" in receiving its ensigns,--gold, to wit, and odours. "The spoils," moreover, "of Samaria" (He received in receiving) the magi themselves, who, on recognising Him, and honouring Him with gifts, and adoring Him on bonded knee as Lord and King, on the evidence of the guiding and indicating star, became "the spoils of Samaria," that is, of idolatry--by believing, namely, on Christ. [Tertullian Adv Iud 9 .12 KROYMANN Aem., CCL 2 (1954), (p.1368, l.88) BP1]
Many scholars have noted that this dating of Arabia belonging to Syrophoenicia is also found in Justin and demonstrates that his works were corrupted by a later edition (Irenaeus) c. 195 CE. In other words, Irenaeus was either introducing or strengthening an argument for the virgin birth by means of the prophesy from Isaiah.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's think about this. Justin and the derived texts of Tertullian all use Isaiah to 'predict' the account of the virgin birth. There was an earlier version than appears in our canon where a 'cave' is specifically mentioned. Justin knew that account as did Celsus (who read Justin). But does the prophesy of Isaiah depend on the division of Syria? No. Justin, I think could have made the case that Isaiah predicted the magi would visit the cave with the 'spoils of Samaria.' What is added about the state of affairs in Syria c 195 CE is strangely added to clarify the situation to contemporary readers in Irenaeus's time. Do others agree?
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

Justin depends on the LXX which has 'power' of Damascus:
And the Lord said to me, Take to thyself a volume of a great new book, and write in it with a man's pen concerning the making a rapid plunder of spoils; for it is near at hand. 2And make me witnesses of faithful men, Urias, and Zacharias the son of Barachias. 3And I went in to the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son. And the Lord said to me, Call his name, Spoil quickly, plunder speedily. 4For before the child shall know how to call his father or his mother, one shall take the power of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria before the king of the Assyrians.
The bit about Arabia comes from another prophesy:

"The kings of the Arabs and Saba shall bring Him gifts."

Again from the LXX - Ps. 72. 10:
The kings of Tharsis, and the isles, shall bring presents: the kings of the Arabians and Saba shall offer gifts. And all kings shall worship him; all the Gentiles shall serve him.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

My guess is that Justin only made reference to Isaiah and then someone later added the bit from Psalm 72:
I have repeated to you,” I continued, “what Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave; but for the sake of those who have come with us to-day, I shall again remind you of the passage.”

Then I repeated the passage from Isaiah which I have already written,1 adding that, by means of those words, those who presided over the mysteries of Mithras were stirred up by the devil to say that in a place, called among them a cave, they were initiated by him/them [2244].

“So Herod, when the Magi from Arabia did not return to him, as he had asked them to do, but had departed by another way to their own country, according to the commands laid on them; and when Joseph, with Mary and the Child, had now gone into Egypt, as it was revealed to them to do; as he did not know the Child whom the Magi had gone to worship, ordered simply the whole of the children then in Bethlehem to be massacred. And Jeremiah prophesied that this would happen, speaking by the Holy Ghost thus: ‘A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and much wailing, Rachel weeping for her children; and she would not be comforted, because they are not’ [Jer. 31.15]

"Therefore, on account of the voice which would be heard from Ramah, i.e., from Arabia (for there is in Arabia at this very time a place called Rama), wailing would come on the place where Rachel the wife of Jacob called Israel, the holy patriarch, has been buried, i.e., on Bethlehem; while the women weep for their own slaughtered children, and have no consolation by reason of what has happened to them.
For that expression of Isaiah, ‘He shall take the power of Damascus and spoils of Samaria,’ foretold that the power of the evil demon that dwelt in Damascus should be overcome by Christ as soon as He was born; and this is proved to have happened.

"For the Magi, who were held in bondage / [spoiled]2 for the commission of all evil deeds through the power of that demon, by coming to worship Christ, shows that they have revolted from that dominion which held them captive; and this [dominion] the Scripture has showed us to reside in Damascus. Moreover, that sinful and unjust power is termed well in parable, Samaria [2247].2 And none of you can deny that Damascus was, and is, in the region of Arabia, although now it belongs to what is called Syrophœnicia. Hence it would be becoming for you, sirs, to learn what you have not perceived, from those who have received grace from God, namely, from us Christians; and not to strive in every way to maintain your own doctrines, dishonouring those of God.
Notice no mention of Arabia in the Proto-Evangelium that mentions the cave known to Justin et al:
Now there went out a decree from the king Augustus that all (= Luke 2.1) those in Bethlehem in Judea (= Matthew 2.1) should be enrolled (= Luke 2.1). And Joseph said, “I shall enroll my sons, but what shall I do with this child? How shall I enroll her? As my wife? I am ashamed to do that. Or as my daughter? But all the children of Israel know that she is not my daughter. On this day of the Lord the Lord will do as he wills.” 2 And he saddled his jenny and sat her on it; his son led and Joseph followed. And they drew near to the third milestone. And Joseph turned round and saw her sad and said within himself, “Perhaps the child within her is paining her.” Another time Joseph turned round and saw her laughing and said to her, “Mary, why is it that I see your face at one moment laughing and at another sad?” And Mary said to Joseph, “I see with my eyes two peoples, one weeping and lamenting and one rejoicing and exulting.” 3 And having come halfway, Mary said to him, “Joseph, take me down from the jenny, for the child within me presses me to come forth.” And he took her down from the jenny and said to her, “Where shall I take you and hide your shame? For the place is desert.” 18.1 And he found a cave there and brought her into it, and left her in the care of his sons and went out to seek for a Hebrew midwife in the region of Bethlehem. / 17.1 Κέλευσις δὲ ἐγένετο ἀπὸ [τουν] Ἀόστου τοῦ βασιλέως ἀπογράψασθαι ὅσοι εἰσὶν ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας. καὶ εἶπεν Ἰωσήφ· «Ἐγὼ ἀπογράψομαι τοὺς υἱούς μου. ταύτην δὲ τὴν παῖδα τί ποιήσω; πῶς αὐτὴν ἀπογράψομαι; γυναῖκα ἐμήν; ἐπαισχύνομαι. ἀλλὰ θυγατέρα; οἶδαν οἱ υἱοὶ Ἰσραὴλ ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν θυγάτηρ μου. αὕτη ἡ ἡμέρα κυρίου ποιήσει ὡς βούλεται.» 2 καὶ ἔστρωσεν τὸν ὄνον καὶ ἐκάθισεν αὐτὴν καὶ ἧλκεν ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ καὶ ἠκολούθει Σαμουήλ. καὶ [ην]ἤγγισαν ἐπὶ μίλιον τρίτον, καὶ ἐστράφη Ἰωσὴφ, καὶ εἶδεν αὐτὴν στυγνὴν καὶ ἔλεγεν, «Ἴσως τὸ ἐν αὐτῇ χειμάζει αὐτήν.» καὶ πάλιν ἐστράφη Ἰωσὴφ καὶ εἶδεν αὐτὴν γελοῦσαν, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ, «Μαριάμμη, τί ἐστίν σοι τοῦτο, ὅτι τὸ πρόσωπόν σου βλέπω ποτὲ μὲν γελοῦντα ποτὲ δὲ στυγνάζον;» καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· «Ἰωσήφ, ὅτι δύο λαοὺς βλέπω ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς μου, ἕνα κλαίοντα καὶ κοπτόμενον καὶ ἕνα χαίροντα καὶ ἀγαλλιῶντα.» 3 καὶ ἤλθωσιν ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς ὁδοῦ, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Μαριάμμη, «Ἰωσήφ, κατάγαγέ με ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄνου, ὅτι τὸ ἐν ἐμοὶ ἐπείγει με προελθεῖν.» καὶ κατήγαγεν αὐτὴν ἐκεῖ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ, «Ποῦ σε ἀπάξω καὶ σκεπάσω σου τὴν ἀσχημοσύνην, ὅτι ὁ τόπος ἔρημός ἐστιν;» 18.1 καὶ εὗρεν ἐκεῖ σπήλαιον καὶ εἰσήγαγεν αὐτὴν καὶ παρέστησεν αὐτῇ[ν] τοὺς υἱοὺς αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐξῆλθεν ζητῆσαι μαῖαν Ἑβραίαν ἐν χώρᾳ Βηθλεέμ.

18.2 Now I, Joseph, was walking, and yet I did not walk, and I looked up to the air and saw the air in amazement. And I looked up at the vault of heaven, and saw it standing still and the birds of the heaven motionless. And I looked down at the earth, and saw a dish placed there and workmen reclining, and their hands were in the dish. But those who chewed did not chew, and those who lifted up did not lift, and those who put something to their mouth put nothing to their mouth, but everybody looked upward. And behold, sheep were being driven and they did not come forward but stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them with his staff, but his hand remained upright. And I looked at the flow of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids over it, and they did not drink. And then suddenly everything went on its course. 19.1a And behold, a woman came down from the hill country and said to me, “Man, where are you going?” And I said, “I seek a Hebrew midwife.” And she answered me, “Are you from Israel?” And I said to her, “Yes.” And she said, “And who is she who brings forth in the cave?” And I said, “My betrothed.” And she said to me, “Is she not your wife?” And I said to her, “She is Mary, who was brought up in the temple of the Lord, and I received her by lot as my wife, and she is not my wife, but she has conceived by the Holy Spirit.” And the midwife said to him, “Is this true?” And Joseph said to her, “Come and see.” / 2 «Ἐγὼ δὲ Ἰωσὴφ περιεπάτουν καὶ οὐ περιεπάτουν. καὶ ἀνέβλεψα εἰς τὸν πόλον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ εἶδον αὐτὸν ἑστῶτα, καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀέρα καὶ εἶδον αὐτὸν ἔκθαμβον καὶ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἠρεμοῦντα. καὶ ἐπέβλεψα ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ εἶδον σκάφην κειμένην καὶ ἐργάτας ἀνακειμένους, καὶ ἦσαν αἱ χεῖρες αὐτῶν ἐν τῇ σκάφῃ. καὶ οἱ μασώμενοι οὐκ ἐμασῶντο καὶ οἱ αἴροντες οὐκ ἀνέφερον καὶ οἱ προσφέροντες τῷ στόματι αὐτῶν οὐ προσέφερον, ἀλλὰ πάντων ἦν τὰ πρόσωπα ἄνω βλέποντα. καὶ εἶδον ἐλαυνόμενα πρόβατα, καὶ τὰ πρόβατα ἑστήκει· καὶ ἐπῆρεν ὁ ποιμὴν τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ τοῦ πατάξαι αὐτά, καὶ ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ ἔστη ἄνω. 19.1a καὶ ἐπέβλεψα ἐπὶ τὸν χείμαρρον τοῦ ποταμοῦ καὶ εἶδον ἐρίφους καὶ τὰ στόματα αὐτῶν ἐπικείμενα τῷ ὕδατι καὶ μὴ πίνοντα. καὶ πάντα θήξει ὑπὸ τοῦ δρόμου αὐτῶν ἀπηλαύνετο. καὶ εἶδον γυναῖκα καταβαίνουσαν ἀπὸ τῆς ὀρεινῆς, καὶ εἶπέν μοι, ‹Ἄνθρωπε, ποῦ πορεύῃ;› καὶ εἶπον, ‹Μαῖαν ζητῶ Ἑβραίαν.› καὶ ἀποκριθεῖσα εἶπέν μοι, ‹Ἐξ Ἰσραὴλ εἶ;› καὶ εἶπον αὐτῇ, ‹Ναί.› Ἡ δὲ εἶπεν· ‹Καὶ τίς ἐστιν ἡ γεννῶσα ἐν τῷ σπηλαίῳ;› καὶ εἶπον ἐγώ· ‹Ἡ μεμνηστευμένη μοι.› Καὶ εἶπέ μοι· ‹Οὐκ ἔστι σου γυνή;› Καὶ εἶπον αὐτῇ· ‹Μαρία ἐστίν͵ ἡ ἀνατραφεῖσα ἐν τῷ ναῷ Κυρίου. καὶ ἐκληρωσάμην αὐτὴν γυναῖκα͵ καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν μου γυνή͵ ἀλλὰ σύλλημμα ἔχει ἐκ Πνεύματος ἁγίου.›» καὶ εἶπεν ἡ μαῖα, «Τοῦτο ἀληθές;» καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ Ἰωσήφ, «Δεῦρο καὶ ἴδε.» / Papyrus Bodmer V: 18.2 — 19.1a And he found one who was just coming down from the hill country, and he took her with him, and said to the midwife, “Mary is betrothed to me, but she conceived of the Holy Spirit after she had been brought up in the Temple of the Lord.” / 18.2 — 19.1a καὶ εὑρὼν ἤνεγκεν ἀπὸ ὀρενῆς καταβαίνουσαν. και εἶπεν Ἰωσὴφ τῇ μαίᾳ ὅτι «Μαρία ἐστὶν ἡ μεμνηστευμένη μοι, ἀλλὰ σύλλημμα ἔχει ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου, ἀνατραφεῖσα ἐν ναῷ κυρίου.»

19.1b And she went with him. 2 And they stopped at the entrance to the cave, and behold, a bright cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said, “My soul is magnified today, for my eyes have seen wonderful things; for salvation is born to Israel.” And immediately the cloud disappeared from the cave and a great light appeared, so that our eyes could not bear it. A short time afterwards that light withdrew until the baby appeared, and it came and took the breast of its mother Mary. And the midwife cried, “This day is great for me, because I have seen this new sight.” 3 And the midwife came out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her, “Salome, Salome, I have a new sight to tell you about; a virgin has brought forth, a thing which her condition does not allow.” And Salome said, “As the Lord my God lives, unless I insert my finger and test her condition, I will not believe that a virgin has given birth.” / 19.1b καὶ ἀπῄει μετ´ αὐτοῦ, 2 καὶ ἔστησαν ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τοῦ σπηλαίου. καὶ ἦν νεφέλη σκοτεινὴ ἐπισκιάζουσα τὸ σπήλαιον. καὶ εἶπεν ἡ μαῖα, «Ἐμεγαλύνθη ἡ ψυχή μου σήμερον, ὅτι εἶδον οἱ ὀφθαλμοί μου παράδοξα σήμερον, ὅτι σωτηρία τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γεγένηται.» καὶ παραχρῆμα ἡ νεφέλη ὑπεστέλλετο τοῦ σπηλαίου, καὶ ἐφάνη φῶς μέγα ἐν τῷ σπηλαίῳ ὥστε τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς μὴ φέρειν. καὶ πρὸς ὀλίγον τὸ φῶς ἐκεῖνο ὑπεστέλλετο, ἕως ἐφάνη βρέφος· καὶ ἦλθεν καὶ ἔλαβε μασθὸν ἐκ τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Μαρίας. καὶ ἀνεβόησεν ἡ μαῖα καὶ εἶπεν, «Ὡς μεγάλη μοι ἡ σήμερον ἡμέρα, ὅτι εἶδον τὸ καινὸν θέαμα τοῦτο.» 3 καὶ ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ σπηλαίου ἡ μαῖα, καὶ ἠπήντησεν αὐτῇ Σαλώμη, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ, «Σαλώμη Σαλώμη, καινόν σοι θέαμα ἔχω ἐξηγήσασθαι· παρθένος ἐγέννησεν, ἃ οὐ χωρεῖ ἡ φύσις αὐτῆς.» καὶ εἶπεν Σαλώμη· «Ζῇ Κύριος ὁ Θεός μου· ἐὰν μὴ βάλω τὸν δάκτυλόν μου καὶ ἐραυνήσω τὴν φύσιν αὐτῆς͵ οὐ μὴ πιστεύσω ὅτι ἡ παρθένος ἐγέννησεν.»

20.1 And the midwife went in and said to Mary, “Make yourself ready, for there is no small contention concerning you.” And Salome inserted her finger to test her condition. And she cried out saying, “Woe for my wickedness and my unbelief! For I have tempted the living God; and behold, my hand falls away from me, consumed by fire!” 2 And she bowed her knees before the Lord saying, “O God of my fathers, remember me, for I am the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not make me pilloried for the children of Israel, but restore me to the poor. For you know, Lord, that in your name I perform my duties and from you I have received my hire.” 3 And behold, an angel of the Lord appeared and said to her, “Salome, Salome, the Lord God has heard your prayer. Bring your hand to the child and touch him and salvation and joy will be yours.” 4 And Salome came near and touched him, saying, “I will worship him, for a great king has been born to Israel.” And Salome was healed as she had requested, and she went out of the cave. And, behold, an angel of the Lord cried, “Salome, Salome, do not report what marvels you have seen, until the child has come to Jerusalem.” / 20.1 καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἡ μαῖα καὶ εἶπεν, «Μαρία, σχημάτισον σεαυτήν· οὐ γὰρ μικρὸς ἀγὼν πρόκειται περὶ σοῦ.» καὶ ἡ Μαρία ἀκούσασα ταῦτα ἐσχημάτισεν αὑτήν. καὶ ἔβαλε Σαλώμη τὸν δάκτυλον αὐτῆς εἰς τὴν φύσιν αὐτῆς. καὶ ἀνηλάλαξεν Σαλώμη καὶ εἶπεν, «Οὐαὶ τῇ ἀνομίᾳ μου καὶ τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ μου, ὅτι ἐξεπείρασα Θεὸν ζῶντα. καὶ ἰδού, ἡ χείρ μου πυρὶ ἀποπίπτει ἀπ´ ἐμοῦ.» 2 καὶ ἔκλινεν τὰ γόνατα πρὸς τὸν δεσπότην Σαλώμη λέγουσα, «Ὁ Θεὸς τῶν πατέρων μου, μνήσθητί μου ὅτι σπέρμα εἰμὶ Ἀβραὰμ καὶ Ἰσαὰκ καὶ Ἰακώβ. μὴ παραδειγματίσῃς με τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραήλ, ἀλλὰ ἀπόδος με τοῖς πένησιν. σὺ γὰρ οἶδας, δέσποτα, ὅτι ἐπὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι τὰς θεραπείας ἐπετέλουν καὶ τὸν μισθόν μου παρὰ σοῦ ἐλάμβανον.» 3 καὶ ἰδού, ἄγγελος κυρίου ἔστη λέγων πρὸς αὐτήν, «Σαλώμη, Σαλώμη, ἐπήκουσεν ὁ πάντων δεσπότης τῆς δεήσεώς σου. προσένεγκε τὴν χεῖρά σου τῷ παιδίῳ καὶ βάσταξον αὐτό, καὶ ἔσται σοι σωτηρία καὶ χαρά.» 4 λαβοῦσα δὲ χαρὰν προσῆλθε Σαλώμη τῷ παιδίῳ καὶ ἐβάσταξεν αὐτὸ λέγουσα, «Προσκυνήσω αὐτῷ, ὅτι οὗτος ἐγεννήθη βασιλεὺς τῷ Ἰσραήλ.» καὶ παραχρῆμα ἰάθη Σαλώμη καὶ ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ σπηλαίου δεδικαιωμένη. καὶ ἰδού, φωνὴ λέγουσα, «Σαλώμη, Σαλώμη, μὴ ἀναγγείλῃς ὅσα εἶδες παράδοξα ἕως ἔρθῃ ὁ παῖς εἰς Ἱεροσάλημα.» / Papyrus Bodmer V: 20.1 καὶ εἰσῆλθεν καὶ ἐσχημάτισεν αὐτήν, καὶ ἠραύνησε ἡ Σαλώμη τὴν φύσιν αὐτῆς. καὶ ἀνηλάλαξεν Σαλώμη ὅτι ἐξεπείρασεν Θεὸν ζῶντα, «Καὶ ἰδού, ἡ χείρ μου πυρὶ ἀποπίπτει ἀπ´ ἐμοῦ.» 2 καὶ προσηύξατο πρὸς κύριον, καὶ ἰάθη ἡ μαῖα ἐν τῇ ὥρᾳ ἐκείνῃ. 3 καὶ ἰδού, ἄγγελος Κυρίου ἔστη πρὸς Σαλώμην λέγων, «Εἰσηκούσθη ἡ δέησίς σου ἐνώπιον Κυρίου τοῦ Θεοῦ. προσελθοῦσα ἅψαι τοῦ παιδίου καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται σοι ἡ σωτηρία.» 4 καὶ ἐποίησεν οὕτω καὶ ἰάθη Σαλώμη καθὼς προσεκύνησεν, καὶ ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ σπηλαίου. ἰδού, ἄγγελος κυρίου ἐν φωνῇ λέγων, «Σαλώμη, Σαλώμη, μὴ ἀναγγείλῃς ὅσα εἶδες παράδοξα ἕως ἔρθῃ ὁ παῖς εἰς Ἱεροσάλημα.»

21.1 And behold, Joseph was ready to go to Judea. And there took place a great tumult in Bethlehem of Judea. For there came wise men saying, “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him” (= Matthew 2.1-2). / 21.1 καὶ ἰδού, Ἰωσὴφ ἡτοιμάσθη τοῦ ἐξελθεῖν ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ, καὶ θόρυβος ἐγένετο μέγας ἐν Βηθλὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας. ἤλθωσαν γὰρ μάγοι λέγοντες, «Ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ τὸν ἀστέρα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθαμεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.»

21.2 When Herod heard this he was troubled and sent officers to the wise men, and sent for the high priests and questioned them, “How is it written concerning the Messiah? Where is he born?” They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written.” And he let them go. And he questioned the wise men and said to them, “What sign did you see concerning the newborn king?” And the wise men said, “We saw how an indescribably greater star shone among these stars and dimmed them so that the stars no longer shone; and so we knew that a king was born for Israel. And we have come to worship him.” And Herod said, “Go and seek, and when you have found him, tell me, that I also may come to worship him.” 3a And the wise men went out. And behold, the star which they had seen in the east, went before them until they came to the cave. And it stood over the head of the cave (= Matthew 2.1-10). / 21.2 καὶ ἀκούσας ὁ Ἡρώδης ἐταράχθη καὶ ἔπεμψεν ὑπηρέτας πρὸς τοὺς μάγους· καὶ μετεπέμψατο καὶ τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ἀνέκρινεν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ πραιτωρίῳ λέγων αὐτοῖς, «Πῶς γέγραπται περὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ; ποῦ γεννᾶται;» λέγουσιν αὐτῷ, «Ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας, οὕτως γὰρ γέγραπται.» καὶ ἀπέλυσεν αὐτούς. καὶ ἀνέκρινεν τοὺς μάγους λέγων αὐτοῖς, «Τί εἴδετε σημεῖον ἐπὶ τὸν γεννηθέντα βασιλέα;» καὶ εἶπον οἱ μάγοι, «Εἴδομεν ἀστέρα παμμεγέθη λάμψαντα ἐν τοῖς ἄστροις τούτοις καὶ ἀμβλύναντα αὐτούς, ὥστε τοὺς ἀστέρας μὴ φαίνεσθαι. καὶ οὕτως ἔγνωμεν ὅτι βασιλεὺς ἐγεννήθη τῷ Ἰσραήλ, καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.» καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἡρώδης, «Ὑπάγετε καὶ ζητήσατε, καὶ ἐὰν εὕρητε ἀπαγγείλατέ μοι, ὅπως κἀγὼ ἐλθὼν προσκυνήσω αὐτῷ.» 3a καὶ ἐξῆλθον οἱ μάγοι. καὶ ἰδού, ὃν εἶδον ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ προῆγεν αὐτοὺς ἕως εἰσῆλθαν ἐν τῷ σπηλαίῳ, καὶ ἔστη ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν τοῦ παιδίου. / Papyrus Bodmer V: 21.2 καὶ ἀκούσας ὁ Ἡρώδης ἐταράχθη καὶ ἔπεμψεν ὑπηρέτας καὶ μετεπέμψατο αὐτοὺς καὶ διεσάφησαν αὐτῷ περὶ τοῦ ἀστέρος. καὶ ἰδού, εἶδον ἀστέρας ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ προῆγαν αὐτοὺς ἕως εἰσῆλθαν ἐν τῷ σπηλαίῳ καὶ ἔστη ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν τοῦ παιδίου. 3a —

21.3b And the wise men saw the young child with Mary his mother, and they took out of their pouch gifts: gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 4 And having been warned by the angel that they should not go into Judea, they went to their own country by another route (= Matthew 2.11-12). / 21.3b καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν οἱ μάγοι ἑστῶτα μετὰ τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Μαρίας, ἐξέβαλον ἀπὸ τῆς πήρας αὐτῶν δῶρα χρυσὸν καὶ λίβανον καὶ σμύρναν. 4 καὶ χρηματισθέντες ὑπὸ τοῦ ἀγγέλου μὴ εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν Ἰουδαίαν, διὰ ἄλλης ὁδοῦ ἀνεχώρησαν εἰς τὴν χώραν αὐτῶν.

22.1 But when Herod realized that he had been deceived by the wise men he was angry and sent his murderers and commanded them to kill all the babies who were two years old and under (= Matthew 2.16). 2 When Mary heard that the babies were to be killed, she was afraid and took the child and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in an ox manger (= Luke 2.7). / 22.1 τότε Ἡρώδης ἰδὼν ὅτι ἐνεπαίχθη ὑπὸ τῶν μάγων ὀργισθεὶς ἔπεμψεν αὐτοῦ τοὺς φονευτὰς λέγων αὐτοῖς ἀνελεῖν πάντα τὰ βρέφη ἀπὸ διετίας καὶ κάτω. 2 καὶ ἀκούσασα ἡ Μαρία ὅτι τὰ βρέφη ἀναιρεῖται, φοβηθεῖσα ἔλαβεν τὸν παῖδα καὶ ἐσπαργάνωσεν αὐτὸν καὶ ἔβαλεν ἐν πάθνῃ βοῶν.
I think the bit about Arabia was added by Irenaeus when he developed Matthew because the prophesy from Psalm 72 was closer to the gospel than Isaiah and fit the times he lived in!
Secret Alias
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by Secret Alias »

Was there a time when Samaria and Damascus were part of the same province? This might help make sense of the reason why Arabia was added too.
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mlinssen
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Re: Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 78

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:51 am No mistranslation, just a possible way to see cave as being the original due to Hebrew/Aramaic

But does Matthew even contradict this account of the cave?
Matthew doesn't say Jesus was born in a house, it says he was already born when the magi saw his star and when they found him days later he was in a house. He could still have been born in a cave except it's pretty obvious Joseph has a house there in Matthew... hmmm

Matthew may be choosing to omit the place of birth in the cave in some scenario, and so does Luke as it also doesn't state the location
For some reason Matthew insists Joseph is living in Bethlehem already. Two different traditions
There is a tradition from somewhere else that it was a cave, some other gospel or writing
It is impossible that Matthew was written in Hebrew because the entire concept of "fulfilling the prophecy of" the virgin birth is based on the LXX mistranslating for parthenos:

The parthenos translation failure is apparent in Genesis 24:16

ἡ δὲ παρθένος ἦν καλὴ τῇ ὄψει σφόδρα· παρθένος ἦν, ἀνὴρ οὐκ ἔγνω αὐτήν.

The young woman was very attractive in appearance, a maiden whom no man had known.

Both Hebrew words are translated with parthenos, https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vehannaara_5291.htm as well as https://biblehub.com/hebrew/betulah_1330.htm - and only the latter means virgin. The word in Isaiah is yet different, https://biblehub.com/hebrew/haalmah_5959.htm, which appears in Genesis 24:43 and Exodus 2:8 as well, and just means maid(en) and is translated as such there.
And again, that word gets translated with parthenos in the Septuagint Isa 7:14

ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ λήμψεται καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ

It seems that the LXX translators had only a very basic knowledge of Greek and weren't really familiair with what they were translating. Or they were a bunch of horny old men who wished to see a virgin in every kind of young woman possible. Or all of the above

So not only did Matthew know no Hebrew, he neither knew the Tanakh - but he could (and did) read the Septuagint
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