Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by mlinssen » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:14 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:26 am
So my best estimate of where an original narrative may have ended is Mark 15.38-39 or thereabouts, making Jesus a martyr exalted after death and explaining why some seemingly very early Christian statements seem to skip the resurrection and go straight from death to exaltation (the Jesus hymn in Philippians, for example). There may have been an early story line to the effect that he was taken up from the cross. Either way, my suspicion is that the crucifixion once served as the end of the gospel story.
I really like that!
Just going by it, and the women pair is a marker of some kind indeed. By the way, what a silliness about the stone: Joseph puts it in front of the tomb on his own, so two women should be able to do the same unless he was a giant hulk.
They witness the death scene, and I really like 15:39 as a final Mark verse.
They witness the burial, a tad too late because the stone is already in place, but again it's the clumsy Markan detail of buying linen and the tomb cut out of rock that strikes me as "likely Markan" although I'd do the same

Mark 15:46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
Mark 16:4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

Really... what's with the silly details. Completely different perceptions here, such is for sure. Yet again indeed Ben, the woman pair is here, to witness the resurrection

Mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid

... and that, my dear friends, is the reason why you didn't know about Geewsuz having risen - cuz them damn womens never told anyone?!!!!!!


[Edited some]
I like it, I like it a lot even. Mark the short version (until 16:8 so without the shorter or longer ending) is so unfinished to our eye, but if you take 15:39 as a final verse and then read this addition, you go from death to resurrection, with an explanation. And both stories are finished products

And the women get blamed - what better outcome than that really

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8252
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:58 am

mlinssen wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:14 am
By the way, what a silliness about the stone: Joseph puts it in front of the tomb on his own, so two women should be able to do the same unless he was a giant hulk.
I think there are three possibilities here; and I am speaking to verisimilitude, not to historicity. First, to say that "he" (Joseph) did it does not necessarily exclude him from having help; such a colloquialism is very common. Second, there may be a reliance on the trope of feminine weakness. Third, at least some of the examples of tombs with rolling stones I have seen have the stone rolling down a track, or even into a notch, to close the tomb, but up that same track, or out of the notch, to open it.

What arrests my attention more than the women's inability to roll the stone away is that in 16.3 they already know they cannot do it, and yet they are making the trip anyway. I guess they were hoping to find some chump who would aid and abet their disturbance of a burial site...?

The commentaries, by the way, suggest that by far the most common kind of stone covering of the period was the square stone, which cannot roll. Only the very wealthy could afford a rolling stone. This information seems to come at least partly from an article I do not have access to, "Did a Rolling Stone Close Jesus' Tomb,?" by Amos Kloner from 1999. But some online searching suggests that, according to the article, of the 900+ stone tombs found in Jerusalem during the five centuries leading up to the time of Jesus, only four had rolling stones. The occupants of one of them are perhaps unknown, but two of the other three belonged (A) to Queen Helena of Adiabene and (B) to King Herod; the last one was found near Herod's family tomb.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3490
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:01 am

to Giuseppe.
no problem for the rest, but this point raises partially my curiosity: what do the political views of X imply on your judgement of X's view on Christian origins ? Only curious (politics doesn't matter for me).
I don't know why I wrote "socialist". Probably because that Guillet was just that in politics. I certainly did not mean socialists in France are anti-Christians.

Cordially, Bernard

davidmartin
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by davidmartin » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:06 am

what would it take for Mary's role to have been interjected like this? anyone at the time claiming to have been there or knew someone that was and possess information on this would beat hands down a gospel author writing it in themselves. (this applies more to the crucifixion in general than just the empty tomb). if Paul didn't have this, or Peter (or else no need for Mary as first witness) and they'd be under no obligation to respect those they passed the info on to, other than telling them what they expected to hear... i see that kind of setup going down who knows!

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8252
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:17 am

davidmartin wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:06 am
what would it take for Mary's role to have been interjected like this? anyone at the time claiming to have been there or knew someone that was and possess information on this would beat hands down a gospel author writing it in themselves.
Okay, but, if it never actually happened, then such a person would not exist, right? Nobody was claiming to be there because nobody knew there was a "there" to claim to be at until the story was written; and the story was written too late for anyone to credibly claim to have taken part. I guess I may not be understanding what you are saying or asking here.
(this applies more to the crucifixion in general than just the empty tomb). if Paul didn't have this, or Peter (or else no need for Mary as first witness) and they'd be under no obligation to respect those they passed the info on to, other than telling them what they expected to hear... i see that kind of setup going down who knows!
I think it is important to keep clear what exactly each text is claiming Mary to be a witness to. Mark claims no more than that she witnessed the empty tomb and an angel. All fine and dandy, but this is no appearance of the living Lord, and she is not thereby competing with any apostle on that score. Matthew gives her and her companions a true appearance. So does John. What do you think this variety means?

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3490
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:19 pm

to davidmartin,
so Bernard thinks Peter was the original just like Acts yet the gospels say it was Mary if you go back far enough and had that original conviction the messiah had arrived
So where do you see Mary M being the original missionary (like Peter in Acts) in the gospels?

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3490
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:02 pm

to Ben,
Each of the three steps which Paul names before the appearances (death, burial, resurrection) the women watch or see. Notice that these women have not once appeared in the gospel up to this point, but their presence during the ministry is backwritten in with that sentence I highlighted in pink. Martijn's instinct that there was a gospel layer ending in chapter 15 is correct, I think, but I believe his cutoff point is incorrect. The women are a unit, and they are there to explain (as mentioned before) why everybody in Christendom (to abuse a term) had heard about the appearances to the apostles but nobody had heard about an empty tomb (the women had kept silent); in the same vein, they explain why the apostolic preaching included bare assertions about the death, the burial, and the resurrection without providing the same kind of witness testimony it had provided for the appearances; at some point in the ancient apologetics game "according to the scriptures" just did not cut it anymore. Also, mere appearances are susceptible to alternate explanations from skeptics (a bit of undigested beef, as Dickens might suggest, or a misunderstood dream, or what have you).

So my best estimate of where an original narrative may have ended is Mark 15.38-39 or thereabouts, making Jesus a martyr exalted after death and explaining why some seemingly very early Christian statements seem to skip the resurrection and go straight from death to exaltation (the Jesus hymn in Philippians, for example).
...
Either way, my suspicion is that the crucifixion once served as the end of the gospel story.
I approve. This is according to my research. Initially, gMark ended at 15:39.
There may have been an early story line to the effect that he was taken up from the cross.

I looked at the "taken up" thread and I saw:
Luke preserves perhaps another relic of the earlier story, as well:
Luke 23.42: 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


The entire motif of separation can be viewed as a reconciling of the one tradition, that Jesus was taken straight up into heaven from the cross, with the other tradition, that Jesus was brought down onto the earth to be buried and then raised again.
(bolding mine)

I don't think here that "paradise" is set in heaven, because "Luke" has Jesus telling of his rising on the third day, not today. Instead, its location is in the traditional Sheol, the domain of the dead, underground. It is where Jesus' spirit goes during the about 40 hours of death.
Then, on the third day, Jesus rises from the dead. However, that does not mean he goes to heaven yet (as for the son of the widow from Nain, who stays alive on earth after his resurrection in order to support his mother: Lk 7:11-15)
Therefore, there is no logistic problem in "Luke" story.
The ascension of Jesus in heaven is never forecasted on the third day. Actually "Luke" in Acts has 40 days of the resurrected Jesus still on earth.

Cordially, Bernard

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8252
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:08 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:02 pm
I don't think here that "paradise" is set in heaven, because "Luke" has Jesus telling of his rising on the third day, not today. Instead, its location is in the traditional Sheol, the domain of the dead, underground. It is where Jesus' spirit goes during the about 40 hours of death.
What passages do you have in mind which locate Paradise in Sheol? I know texts which locate it on Earth and texts which locate it in the Heavens, or in some unspecified location sort of in between, but I am not sure I have ever come across a reference to it being in the nether realm.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12694
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:12 pm

Paradise was at the top of mount Gerizim - an understanding intimated in various sources.

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1564
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Charles Wilson » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:12 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:12 pm
Paradise was at the top of mount Gerizim - an understanding intimated in various sources.
Tell me more...

CW

Post Reply