Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:27 pm

to Ben,
Latin poet Virgil, in Aeneid, placed Elysium under the earth, and this Elysium looks like Paradise for the (good) dead. "Luke" might have been inspired by that. BTW, maybe I went too far when I mentioned Sheol.
And if Jesus does not rise from the dead the same day he is crucified, and goes to heaven much later, where would that put Paradise?

Cordially, Bernard

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:18 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:27 pm
to Ben,
Latin poet Virgil, in Aeneid, placed Elysium under the earth, and this Elysium looks like Paradise for the (good) dead. "Luke" might have been inspired by that. BTW, maybe I went too far when I mentioned Sheol.
So Luke alone, out of all known ancient authors (again, unless you have something on that), locates Paradise underground and does not tell anybody?
And if Jesus does not rise from the dead the same day he is crucified, and goes to heaven much later, where would that put Paradise?
Well, I doubt Luke meant to locate it somewhere unique without telling anybody. It is always possible that the people Luke knew thought of Paradise as being underground and we just lack information on them. But, given how widespread the other notions about Paradise are, I would rather not have to go with that option. So I am left thinking that perhaps Luke 23.42 is a relic from an earlier story in which Jesus was taken up directly from the cross, exalted but not resurrected:

Separationism at the Cross.png
Separationism at the Cross.png (68.45 KiB) Viewed 838 times

I know full well how speculative this is. But, then again, so is your idea (so far) that Luke thought of Paradise as subterranean.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:41 pm

to Ben,
So Luke alone, out of all known ancient authors (again, unless you have something on that), locates Paradise underground and does not tell anybody?
Certainly Virgil, as a well known ancient author, did locate Elysium under the earth and his Aeneid was a great success in antiquity. "Luke" could not use "Elysium" (too much Virgil), so she replaced that word by "Paradise".
And who do you think "Luke" would tell?

And Irenaeus, most likely commenting on what Papias wrote:
As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shah enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city
It is clear here Paradise is not in the heavens.

Cordially, Bernard

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:44 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:41 pm
to Ben,
So Luke alone, out of all known ancient authors (again, unless you have something on that), locates Paradise underground and does not tell anybody?
Certainly Virgil, as a well known ancient author, did locate Elysium under the earth and his Aeneid was a great success in antiquity. "Luke" could not use "Elysium" (too much Virgil), so she replaced that word by "Paradise".
Elysium and Paradise are not the same thing.
And who do you think "Luke" would tell?
The reader. In the text.
And Irenaeus, most likely commenting on what Papias wrote:
As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shah enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city
It is clear here Paradise is not in the heavens.
Nor is it under the Earth. (Like I said, I can find examples pretty easily of Paradise being located either on Earth or in Heaven.)


Bernard Muller
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:52 pm

to Ben,
Elysium and Paradise are not the same thing.
Actually, the word "Paradise" is rare in the NT, 3 times only (none in the LXX), including once in Paul's epistle (2 Cor) where it is placed in 3rd heaven.
It is where Paul in some form meets Jesus, or at least hear his voice and others. But no mention of seeing anything, including "good" dead. It looks "paradise" is a new word for Christianity with no clear meaning, which could be employed in different ways.

"Elysium and Paradise are not the same thing" but both look to be a place for "good" dead.

In the parable of Lazarus in gLuke, after death, the rich man goes in Hades (the hellish part) underneath the earth but manages to have a conversation with Abraham, who is with (also dead) poor Lazarus.
It does not seem that "Luke" conceived Abraham being far away in heaven, but rather in an area close to where the dead rich man is.
As also suggested in Lk 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

It is probably because of Lk 16 and Lk 23:43 that the Thayer's Lexicon states:
III. the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
Cordially, Bernard

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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Charles Wilson » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:25 pm

Thank you, SA.

In following up your more earlier Post, I found this:

https://madainproject.com/mount_gerizim :

""The Place where Abraham offered Isaac, according to the tradition of the Samaritans, is a little rock-sunk trench at the southeast corner of the plateau, on the summit of Gerizim. It resembles the trough used for the Passover feast, and measures about 8 feet by 5 feet. A semicircular flight of seven steps (traditionally called the Seven Steps of Adam out of Paradise) leads down in this direction from the west". --- The Palestine Exploration Fund report of 1872 and 1875 provided a description of the altar (SWP Vol 2 p 188)..."

Not 2 x 4 in the face level of proof but interesting.

My reasons for interest in this is Jannaeus:

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 14, 1 and 2 (in part):

"1. SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem; upon which Alexander, with his six thousand two hundred mercenaries, and about twenty thousand Jews, who were of his party, went against Demetrius, who had three thousand horsemen, and forty thousand footmen. Now there were great endeavors used on both sides, - Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also.

2. Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had..."

Matthew 10: 5 - 7 (RSV):

[5] These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,
[6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Moffatt leaves out "...and enter no town of the Samaritans":

[5] These twelve men Jesus despatched with the following instructions. "Do not go among the Gentiles,
[6] rather make your way to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] preach as you, tell men, 'The Reign of Heaven is near.' "

Josephus is leaving out important information. Shechem is near the Temple at Gerizim. This would imply that Demetrius Eucerus defeats Jannaeus in a battle at or near Gerizim and I truly believe that after this, Demetrius Eucerus performs the Abomination of Desolation. Let the reader understand.

I had thought that Jannaeus was attempting to rebuild a Greater Israel and that has not changed. Now, it appears that there was even more to the Story. Demetrius Eucerus sacrifices a pig on the Altar (or somehow otherwise Profanes the Temple site at Gerizim...) and it is too much for the Jewish Mercenaries to take. They desert Demetrius and he leaves the area.

The description of the Jewish Mercs leaving Demetrius is WAAAY over the top, to the point of being outrageous. If, however, there was also another History, a History of a Paradise, it would make sense. Jannaeus wants to recapture the Israelite History.

Thank you, SA.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:29 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:52 pm
Actually, the word "Paradise" is rare in the NT, 3 times only (none in the LXX), including once in Paul's epistle (2 Cor) where it is placed in 3rd heaven.
The word παράδεισος (paradise) appears about 25 times in the LXX/OG, and a few more times in the deuterocanonical books. It is just a word, probably of Persian derivation, meaning "garden." The instances in the scriptures of the phrase, "the garden of Eden," use that word. I think what you mean is that it does not unambiguously mean the mystical location in the LXX/OG.

But it appears in Jubilees in Greek as the place to which Enoch was whisked away:

Jubilees 4.23: 23 Ἐνὼχ εἰς τὸν παράδεισον ἡρπᾶσθαι. / 23 Enoch was snatched away into Paradise.

And in 1 Enoch 32.1-3 the seer visits far places on the Earth, one of them being the Paradise of Righteousness, in which is found the Tree of Wisdom. And in Testament of Levi 18.10 it is said that the eschatological priest will open the gates of Paradise.

Other books containing the term are a lot harder to date (the Life of Adam and Eve, 2 Enoch, and so on). Notably, 2 Enoch relates Paradise to the Third Heaven, kind of like Paul.

The two other mentions of the term in the New Testament suggest a heavenly location.
It is probably because of Lk 16 and Lk 23:43 that the Thayer's Lexicon states:
III. the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
That entry makes me wonder what texts locate Paradise in Hades. How late were those "later Jews," as Thayer phrases it? We cannot rely on a lexicon to solve a problem regarding the development of a concept. We need to see the texts.
It is where Paul in some form meets Jesus, or at least hear his voice and others. But no mention of seeing anything, including "good" dead. It looks "paradise" is a new word for Christianity with no clear meaning, which could be employed in different ways.
That is not true.
It does not seem that "Luke" conceived Abraham being far away in heaven, but rather in an area close to where the dead rich man is.
Well, he is far away, at least:

Luke 16.23: 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms.

It is a parable, though, after all. Perhaps one should not question how someone in Hades can speak to someone in Abraham's Bosom like this.

The parable of Lazarus and Dives, if anything, at any rate, suggests that Abraham's Bosom is not in Hades. It says that the rich man goes to Hades and that the poor man goes to Abraham's Bosom; it says that there is a rift between the two men.

Yes, I know that technically the place "far away" could be in another part of Hades, but the flow of the story does not in any way suggest that, and it seems far more natural to read Abraham's Bosom and Hades as two separate places, no matter where Abraham's Bosom is supposed to be.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:36 pm

Image

1. tree of knowledge, good and evil
2. lamb
3. four rivers of paradise
4. flowing from the top of a mountain (= mount Gerizim)

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Re: Jesus' eyewitnesses never becoming Christians

Post by mlinssen » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:17 am

And then imagine the Samarian attitude towards Judeans and pharisees, when John Hyrcanus destroys mount Gerizim. As if not enough had occurred prior to that

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