Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Achamoth
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:46 pm

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Achamoth » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:19 pm

What is the basis of your theory that "secret mark" is associated with Marcion?

Mark works no better than Luke as Marcion's Gospel and "secret Mark" has nothing Marcionite about it.

Either Marcion unaccountably chose a Gospel that refuted his whole theology, probably the version of Luke described by the hostile sources, or his Gospel reflected his theology and it was lost except for the quotes from it in Eznik.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:23 pm

Some observations:

1. 'Achamoth' is an inaccurate Patristic attempt to render חכמת into Greek. Odd to chose it as an identity.
2. I just finished saying or writing that I don't know what 'authentic' even means any more. All surviving Christian texts are corrupt to some extent. I only said that it was 'no different' or 'typical' of early Christian texts.
3. I don't get your point. You write:
If you add it to our Mark it merely explains who the man in the Baptismal shroud was during the following arrest scene. It has no effect on the overall narrative of the Gospel. The whole scandal makes a mountain out of something that isn't even a molehill as far as the history or theology of Christianity is concerned.
I agree to some extent. It isn't as big a deal as its detractors claim. Nevertheless, as they are more knowledgeable and subtle than you, it isn't that simple. I think 'scandal' is a relative concept. There are reasons why apologists are uncomfortable with the discovery. I think some of the discomfort is unjustified. But I think they are also more sensitive to the implications of the discovery than you are. Just because you aren't offended or scandalized by something doesn't mean that other people are justified in being scandalized by the same thing.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:28 pm

What is the basis of your theory that "secret mark" is associated with Marcion?
I am not sure my immediate interest in Marcion was explicitly related to Secret Mark. I was trying to explain to another participant that the fact that the discovery might be a forgery - either ancient or modern - doesn't separate it or distinguish it from other texts from earliest Christianity. I noted, in my most recent point that Eusebius acknowledges only a handful of texts that aren't disputed IN THE CHURCH. Even the texts 'universally' or unquestionably accepted by all orthodox Christians are not without controversy, can be further reduced by INCLUDING MARCIONITE OBJECTIONS. I was trying to show that the Letter to Theodore was like other early Christian texts insofar as it was corrupt or a forgery.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:30 pm

While it was outside my immediate point about the number of corrupt or forged texts among the early writings of the Church, Marcion is connected with a mystic gospel of Mark in the Philosophumena, a third century adaption of Irenaeus's Against Heresies.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Achamoth
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:46 pm

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Achamoth » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:39 pm

Achamoth' is an inaccurate Patristic attempt to render חכמת into Greek. Odd to chose it as an identity
.

The Demiurge sent me to mess with you.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:31 am

You'd have thought God would have updated his title in the last 2000 years. We don't esteem 'craftsmen' the way we did in antiquity. He'd likely call himself 'CEO.' 'director' or something more lofty I'd suspect. δημιουργός would seem to be an unnecessarily antiquated terminology in 2020.

StephenGoranson
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:38 am

Nothing about Morton Smith’s personal sexual status is essential nor necessarily relevant in hypothesizing that, after he lost his faith, he chose to embarrass some Christians by inventing a text, and eventually to be discovered as very clever for fooling some scholars.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:41 pm

Seems a little like - whatever works. Take your pick. If you want him to be gay, he was a sexually frustrated homosexual. If you want him to be a lost soul, it was his lost faith. If you want him to be a Sabbatean, he was Aleister Crowley. If you stand back and look at things however, and at least give objectivity a shot, it's a lot like Trump's election fraud case. The case comes down to - we know there was fraud, we just need to find the best evidence to support our convictions. It's a parody of scientific methodology rather than science.

StephenGoranson
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:49 am

Secret/Stephen H., somewhere you wrote that you felt like one of “the last of the Mohicans.”
That Morton Smith’s “Clement” letter was not by Clement has been *argued in detail* by several scholars including Andrew Criddle, and several others before and after him, most recently by Geoffrey Smith at UTexas, Austin (LMWsymposium.com), and G.S.’s work was endorsed by B. Landau and L. Michael White.
That Morton Smith scared the hell out of some students, criticized a conference presenter to the point of tears, offered that Prof. Joseph Fitzmyer rhymed with liar, suggested an article had a printing error deleting Amen, delighted in belittling religion according to many colleagues who knew him…well, you are free to ignore such things, Secret/Stephen H., If you wish, and can choose to be one of the last of the “Mohicans.”

User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Did Morton salt Mar Saba?

Post by mlinssen » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:37 am

StephenGoranson wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:49 am

That Morton Smith scared the hell out of some students, criticized a conference presenter to the point of tears, offered that Prof. Joseph Fitzmyer rhymed with liar, suggested an article had a printing error deleting Amen, delighted in belittling religion according to many colleagues who knew him…well, you are free to ignore such things,
That's all very entertaining really.
What's your point?

Post Reply