Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

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robert j
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Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by robert j »

The characterization of the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Christ as a heavenly event --- as taking place in a cosmic, spiritual realm --- is, in my opinion, a significant weakness in the Carrier/Doherty school of Christ Myth thought.

Nowhere in the primary evidence is such a cosmic event clearly described. The Ascension of Isaiah is rife with problems. Paul spends little ink on this aspect of his Christ.

I’ve previously discussed my working premise that the earliest believers in the Christ found their story by means of allegorical interpretations, by finding previously hidden meanings in the scriptures --- and that Paul learned the details about this scriptural discovery from Cephas (Peter).

What I believe to be an early Peter tradition is explicit about this discovery --- in little discussed passages from Clement of Alexandria. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150 to 215 CE), now a lesser-known Church Father, served in the prestigious position as head of the Catechetical School of Alexandria. He was a prolific writer and is recognized as providing over 8,000 citations from ancient documents.

Most scholars of early Christianity place Clement's passages from the Preaching of Peter in the second-century CE. But Clement's modus operandi, his standard practice in the long and rambling Stromata, was to cite material from the Jewish scriptures, from books now found in the New Testament, and from a wide variety of classical, Greco-Roman and other material --- and to weave the citations into his own running commentary. By separating Clement's running commentary from the direct quotations from the Preaching, the problematic second-century terminology is found to be that of Clement, not the Peter tradition.

For the topic at hand, here’s the pertinent passage from Clement's Stromata, including what Clement presents as direct quotations from the Preaching of Peter. The portions of the passage that I believe to be direct quotations from the Preaching, I’ve highlighted in red, leaving Clement's running commentary in regular font. Other investigators have engaged in a similar exercise.
"Peter, in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: 'But having unrolled the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ, found his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption to heaven before Jerusalem was founded, all these things as they had been written --- what he must suffer and what shall be after him. Therefore, when we took knowledge of these things, we believed in God through that which had been written of him.' And a little after he adds that the prophecies came by Divine providence, in these terms: 'For we know that God commanded them in very deed, and without the Scripture we say nothing'." (Stromata, Book 6, chapter 15).
In the Gospel mythologies, Peter was the most prominent companion of an earthly Jesus, a witness to a great many miracles performed by Jesus, and in some, a witness to the resurrected Christ. However, in this tradition, Peter and his companions know about the Christ only by means of fresh interpretations of the Jewish scriptures, from discovering riddles and hidden meanings --- “without the scripture we say nothing.”

This tradition is consistent with the Pauline claims that the death and resurrection were known “according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), and that the mysteries of the Christ were revealed and made known by the scriptures (Romans 16:25-26). (beware of apologetic translations)

In the Preaching, the events of Jesus took place at the hands of ancient Jews sometime in the distant past, “before Jerusalem was founded” (again, beware of apologetic translations).

In this tradition, the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Christ is lost in a time between legend and what may be history --- between the founding of the people of Israel with Abraham, and the founding of Jerusalem as a Jewish city. In a mystical place and time known to the people of Israel only from their sacred scriptures.

I believe this tradition of Peter tips the scales, at least for this mythicist, in favor of a tradition among the earliest believers that the suffering and death of the Christ took place at the hands of ancient Jews as found in the scriptural past --- rather than as a cosmic event in a heavenly realm.

I’ve conducted a similar exercise on all the passages of the Preaching of Peter cited by Clement by identifying the direct quotations from the Preaching, as in the previous example, by Clement’s introductions with some direct form of "Peter said". By this means, Clement’s running commentary and his paraphrasing can be separated. What emerges is an interesting combination of doctrines similar to those of Paul, in addition to evidence of Jewish sectarianism.

None of the direct quotations from the Preaching represent or expose second-century tradition. By reading Clement's wider context surrounding the citations from the Preaching of Peter --- and when the paraphrases and running commentary of Clement are separated from the direct quotations --- two distinct layers seem to emerge:

Alexandrian, second-century church tradition --- and an earlier tradition.

robert j.
Last edited by robert j on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by MrMacSon »

I agree Jewish sectarianism is reflected in early development of Christian theology; and that many early theologians sought "to weave the citations [from scripture] into his own running commentary". It seems likely the Petrine texts and Pauline texts initially developed separately; each new theology further developed by disparate later input by the likes of Clement of Alexandria or Marcion et al, respectively.

I see the Doherty-Carrier "characterization of the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Christ as a heavenly event --- as taking place in a cosmic, spiritual realm ---" as a commentary on the new Gnostic-like theologies; something the Pauline texts reflects.
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Blood
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by Blood »

"Peter, in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: 'But having unrolled the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ, found his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption to heaven before Jerusalem was founded ..." (Stromata, Book 6, chapter 15).

The scriptures predicted Jesus's resurrection "even before Jerusalem was founded." Can't argue with that.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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Blood
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by Blood »

I guess that means Peter actually created the Documentary Hypothesis, since he's positing that the Prophets came before the Law.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Stephan Huller
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by Stephan Huller »

Why does it follow that the prophets came before the Law when Moses is explicitly identified as 'the prophet' after which all follow (Deut 18:15)?
robert j
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by robert j »

More on the Preaching of Peter from Clement’s Stromata (Part Two)

Following up on my opening post --- here’s a related passage from the Stromata, but not part of the Preaching of Peter. It is found in the Stromata just prior to the passage from the Preaching that I posted above. I present it here for 2 reasons. It demonstrates the way Clement weaves his own running commentary into passages from other material, and it provides a window on Clement's overall theme in this section of the Stromata, and on his second-century, church-influenced interpretation of Peter's words in the Preaching. I've highlighted the scriptural passages in red, leaving the running commentary by Clement in regular font. The scriptural passages are from Matthew 13:34, John 1:3, and Proverbs 8:9, respectively;
"The apostles accordingly say of the Lord, that He spoke all things in parables, and without a parable He spoke nothing unto them; and if all things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made, consequently also prophesy and the law were by Him, and were spoken by Him in parables. But all things are right, says the scripture, before those who understand, that is, those who receive and observe, according to the ecclesiastical rule …" (Stomata, Book 6, chapter 15)
Now back to the Preaching, here’s another passage. I've again highlighted the direct quotations from the Preaching of Peter in red, leaving the running commentary by Clement in regular font. In this example, the material from Peter is derived from Jeremiah 31:31-32,
"Then he (Peter) gives the finale of what is required: 'So then learn in a holy and righteous manner what we deliver to you; keep them, worshipping God in a new way, through Christ. For we have found in the Scriptures how the Lord says: “Behold, I make with you a new covenant, not as I made with your fathers in Mount Horeb”. He made a new one with us; for what belonged to the Greeks and Jews is old. But we, who worship Him in a new way, in the third form, are Christians. For clearly, as I think, he showed that the one and only God was known by the Greeks in a Gentile way, by the Jews Judaically, and in a new and spiritual way by us." (Stromata, Book 6, chapter 5).
The new covenant doctrine in this passage is consistent with the writings of Paul. And here, Peter knows what the Lord said only because he found it "in the scriptures".

Clement’s citations from the Preaching of Peter (Kerygma Petrou) are not to be confused with other documents with similar names. Outside of Clement’s Stromata, only a small fragment is found in Origen’s Commentary on John. And only a negative mention in Eusebius, no surprise there.

It seems apparent that Clement believed the writing he called the Preaching of Peter was from the apostle Peter. I think it more likely to have been written by a follower of Cephas/Peter, and intended to accurately reflect Peter’s early-mid first-century teachings and tradition.

Besides Clement’s use of the document, other aspects of the Preaching hint of an Alexandrian provenance. But we don't know where the Preaching of Peter originated. Perhaps it languished for many decades on a dusty shelf before Clement found it, in a dark corner of the inner library in the old Catechetical School of Alexandria.

There’s still more of interest from the Preaching that I hope to post soon.

robert j.
TedM
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by TedM »

Thanks for posting this interesting material. Is there anything in the Preaching of Peter that on the surface appears to contradict your view--ie where Peter appears to be talking about a Jesus that he knew personally?
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by Tenorikuma »


But having unrolled the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ

I never fail to be astonished at phrases like this. What specific texts could Clement (or Peter) have had in mind?

It reminds me of all those places in Acts where Paul or Apollos or someone will make a slam-dunk case from the "scriptures" that Jesus was the Messiah, but it never actually tells you what scriptures those were or what the argument was. One wonders if the author himself even knows.
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by GakuseiDon »

Tenorikuma wrote:
But having unrolled the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ

I never fail to be astonished at phrases like this. What specific texts could Clement (or Peter) have had in mind?

It reminds me of all those places in Acts where Paul or Apollos or someone will make a slam-dunk case from the "scriptures" that Jesus was the Messiah, but it never actually tells you what scriptures those were or what the argument was. One wonders if the author himself even knows.
Justin Martyr explains in his "Dialogue with Trypho":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
  • CHAPTER LXXV -- IT IS PROVED THAT JESUS WAS THE NAME OF GOD IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS.

    "Moreover, in the book of Exodus we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was Jesus, and was declared mysteriously through Moses. Thus it is written: 'And the Lord spake to Moses, Say to this people, Behold, I send My angel before thy face, to keep thee in the way, to bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.' Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses(Oshea). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was Jesus. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also. Now Isaiah shows that those prophets who are sent to publish tidings from God are called His angels and apostles. For Isaiah says in a certain place, 'Send me.' And that the prophet whose name was changed, Jesus[Joshua], was strong and great, is manifest to all. If, then, we know that God revealed Himself in so many forms to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, how are we at a loss, and do not believe that, according to the will of the Father of all things, it was possible for Him to be born man of the Virgin, especially after we have such Scriptures, from which it can be plainly perceived that He became so according to the will of the Father?

It's all very clear! :scratch:
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
robert j
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Re: Weakness of Carrier/Doherty Heavenly Sacrifice

Post by robert j »


TedM asked,
Is there anything in the Preaching of Peter that on the surface appears to contradict your view--ie where Peter appears to be talking about a Jesus that he knew personally?

I believe there is one passage that is problematic, in terms of reflecting NT gospel traditions. However, in my opinion, good arguments can be presented to dismiss the entire passage as a paraphrasing by Clement, rather than direct quotations from the Preaching of Peter --- paraphrasing by Clement shaded by his own firmly entrenched church biases and his knowledge of gospel traditions.

I lead towards, but I'm not 100% convinced, that the Preaching of Peter represents first-century Petrine tradition of a Christ known only from scriptural discoveries. Clement’s style of mixing direct quotes with his own running commentary and paraphrasing complicates the interpretations. But if the passages of the Preaching are 2nd century (or say, post-war), then these anomalous concepts must be explained ---

--- that the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Christ took place “before the founding of Jerusalem”
--- that Peter and his companions, supposedly witnesses to many miracles of Jesus, could admit, “without the scriptures we say nothing”
--- that the mission of the apostles to “go out into the world” was specifically delayed for 12 years (more on that below)

Clement discusses the Preaching in 5 separate passages found in Books 1 and 6 of his Stromata. In 3 of those 5 passages, Clement clearly introduces the direct quotations from the Preaching with, “Peter says in the Preaching”, “Therefore Peter says that the Lord said to the apostles”, and “Peter, in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles says”. And within these 3 passages, when Clement interrupts the quotations with his own running commentary or paraphrasing, Clement continues the direct quotations with, “then he goes on”, “he says”, “he continues again”, “then he adds”, and “and a little after he adds”.

The other two passages associated by Clement with the Preaching do not contain these direct forms of “Peter said”. The first does not present any problematic concepts, but seems to reflect Alexandrian influence,
“In the Preaching of Peter you may find the Lord called Law and Word.” (Stromata, Book 1, chapter 29)
This second passage lacking an introduction with a direct form of “Peter said” may be seen as containing problematic NT gospel traditions including the Lord giving instructions to the “disciples” after the resurrection, and a commissioning of the twelve. This passage is found in the Stromata in Book 6, chapter 6. A detailed analysis of the passage and its surrounding context is beyond what I’m willing to do here. But for those interested and motivated enough to check it out and decide for themselves, I suggest they consider the following ---

--- as mentioned, the passage lacks the introduction with some form of “Peter said” like the other passages that contain direct quotations. This passage is introduced with “the Lord says”.
--- immediately preceding this passage, Clement is repeatedly talking about, and quoting, what “the Lord said” from a wide variety of sources to press home his arguments regarding salvation.
--- I believe this passage in Book 6, chapter 6 consists of Clement’s own paraphrasing and interpretation of the Preaching of Peter based on his firmly entrenched, 2nd century knowledge of NT gospel and church tradition, and as a means to support his wider arguments in this section.
--- in this problematic passage, I believe Clement is paraphrasing, at least in part, the passage given below that is found in the preceding chapter of the Stromata and that, I believe, does contain a direct quotation from the Preaching. But, not surprisingly, Clement's paraphrasing glosses over, or ignores, the clearly stated 12 year delay of going “out into the world”,
"Therefore Peter says that the Lord said to the apostles: 'If then any of Israel will repent, to believe in God through my name, his sins shall be forgiven him: (and) after twelve years go out into the world, lest any say we did not hear'." (Stromata, Book 6, chapter. 5). (beware of apologetic translations)
I have more to say about this last quotation from the Preaching, including Pauline connections, that I may post soon. [edit: I posted more analyses in a different thread titled; "More of Clement's Preaching of Peter"]

Again, beware of apologetic translations. Making ready research difficult, all the translations I have found on-line have that flaw, including “earlychristianwritings.com”, “newadvent.org”, and “ccel.org” (at least this later one footnotes one instance in Book 6, chapter 15, admitting they changed the “before Jerusalem was founded" as found in the extant text, to their apologetic reading of “previous to the capture of Jerusalem”.

Reasonably good translations in print can be found in these ---

Apocryphal New Testament, by J.K. Elliot, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993.

And Elliot’s translation is reproduced by Bart Ehrman in his, Lost Scriptures --- Books That Did Not Make It Into The New Testament, Oxford University Press, 2003, p.236.

The Apocryphal New Testament, M. R. James, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924.

New Testament Apocrypha, Volume Two, edited by Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Westminster Press, 1964, p.94.

I think Stephan Huller recently posted a link to an on-line copy of the Stromata in the Greek.

robert j.
Last edited by robert j on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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