I have become increasingly convinced that Christianity developed from an older form of Samaritanism which dates back to the Persian period. I think the Dustan can be so rooted and the Dustan were themselves likely misrepresented as the 'followers of Dositheus' of Hippolytus and the Pseudo-Clementines. Perhaps the most familiar Judeo-Persian understanding to readers here is that of the 'third heaven' of the Pauline epistles.
To this end, when atheists complain that heaven is an imaginary place, I am not sure it is so cut and dry. I imagine the development is as follows - the Marcionites connected the 'third heaven' of 2 Corinthians with the 'heaven of heavens' in the Jewish scriptures.
Yet was the 'third heaven' (Persian Garothmana) merely the heavenly region beyond the region of the planets (= the region of the fixed stars) or a region beyond the region of the planets and the fixed stars (i.e. a wholly super-celestial region? I tend to think the latter but need to study the Persian sources more. I also imagine that the Persian rooted Samaritan exegesis of the Pentateuch assumed that the vision at Bethel was related to a ladder of sorts which emerged at the meeting of the sphere of planets and fixed stars which led to this super-celestial realm although I don't know how to prove this yet.
The third heaven, Garotmana (= the 'house of song') seems to be conceived by the Persians as a realm of light.
The highest heaven is Garo-Demana, the House of Song, Ahura Mazda's favourite residence (Vd. 19.30; 22.1). Vohu Manah, the Holy Immortal, welcomes the soul on its first entry into heaven (Vd. 19.31). Rejoicing, the soul then goes on to Ahura-Mazda Himself and the Amesha-Spentas (Vd.19.32) in Garo-Demana, and lives there in perfect peace, constantly chanting the A vesta. Ambrosia and nectar refresh the pious soul. https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&h ... gws_rd=ssl
I can't help but see Manichaeanism as preserving, rather than contaminating, or perhaps 'building upon' already Persian-influenced ideas in the New Testament and early Judaism.
Do you think that the Babylonian celestial realm plays any role in this? I do know that in traditional Hebrew there were seven heavens the fourth heaven being some sort of angelic place.
Remember none of the surviving or known Jewish traditions can be described as specifically 'Persian' which is the period the Pentateuch must have been originally written (note the Persian shape of Pardes). The Samaritans may well have dominated Jewish life in the Persian period (hence the great number of Samaritan texts which survived in to the Common Era who had Persian names). Judaism properly only seemed to have began after the conquests of Alexander.
I think when we examine the origins of the Judeo-Christian tradition we will discover it has very little authentically 'Semitic' features. It is really little more than a Semitic take on an Indo-Iranian religious tradition where a mediator fire god (identified as either Mitra or Eesh = 'friend' or 'man') had a special relationship with the religious elite on behalf of the Most High god who lived in the third of three heavens.
Above the waters and above the firmament is the “heaven of heavens,” the abode of God; according to Amos 9.5–6, “The Lord, God of hosts … builds his upper chambers in the heavens.”
Campion, Nicholas (2012-06-11). Astrology and Cosmology in the Worlds Religions (pp. 138-139). NYU Press short. Kindle Edition.
This is a great book I have on Kindle if you do not have it I would consider getting it. The Babylonians were totally ignorant of precession though but used astrology quite extensively. I am wondering if Paul knew of the Seven Heavens in traditional Hebrew? What was his source for this?
I found this:
The concept that the Bible teaches there are levels of heaven highly likely originated with Middle Ages' poem entitled Divine Comedy by Dante (written somewhere between 1308 - 1321). This writing describes, in graphic detail, his supposed "travels" through the realms of Purgatory, Hell and others, each of which is comprised of nine parts or sections. Some people believe the Comedy is one of the greatest works ever written in world literature.
According to this site Paul never states heavenly levels: Of course we know that simply by reading 2 Cor 12:2-4. This poem was 12th-13th Century long after Paul existed so its doubtful at least in my mind he drew from this.
Note that Paul is not stating there are heavenly levels but rather that he was taken to the third of a sequence of three heavens (logically implying that a first and second domains exist).
Fascinating subject.
I think the first thing we have to do is disassociate Heaven from the concept of an after-life. They are quite different concepts mashed together in religious brains.
I think we have to start with heaven as a geographical location. Genesis 1:6 describes the coming about of this geographical situation: And God said, "Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water."
One might think of the firmament as a fishbowl or cave that separates the waters above and below. Genesis 1:8 says,"And God called the firmament Heaven. it is the vault or firmament that is called heaven.
Genesis 1:8 says, "And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so."
So the dry land or Earth is at the bottom of the firmament/sky/Heaven/Fishbowl/Cave.
Genesis 1:14 says, "And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
Sky, firmament and heaven seem to be pretty much indistinguishable here.
Genesis 1:16, And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.God made two great lights--the larger one to govern the day, and the smaller one to govern the night. He also made the stars.1:17. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
This just tells us that God is placing the Sun, Moon and Stars in the Vault/Sky/Heaven/Firmament/Fish Bowl/Cave between the two waters.
Genesis 1:20And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky."
It is clear that the birds are flying in the same space that God has placed the sun and moon and stars - the vault of the sky, which is the firmament/heaven/fishbowl/cave.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
Our picture of Earth and Heaven is pretty clear. We now have a structure with water and earth on the base. Heaven is everything above the water and Earth and above Heaven is more water. There is no separation of sky and heaven. There are only three levels base to top.
3. Water
2. heaven
1. land and water
Later we get a division of heaven.
Psalm 115:16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth ...
The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind. ... The
heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given the earth to all humanity. ...
Thus we have four places:
4. Water
3.High Heaven controlled by God/s with Sun, Moon, and Stars.
2.Low Heaven or sky where birds fly - controlled by man
1. Water and Land. - fish, animals and vegetation controlled by man
There is perhaps some confusion over whether the lower heaven (sky) belongs to God or Man. Perhaps Genesis is a response to Psalm 114, meant to show that God gave the lower heaven and its birds to man.
One can suggest that the Jews accepted at some point that other Gods existed in the high heaven and therefore their God needed a higher heaven above the high heaven of the Moon, Sun and Stars. This would be the third heaven, perhaps, that Paul speaks about. Thus we get:
5. Water
4. High Heaven (Third Heaven) controlled by Yaweh
3.High Heaven with Sun, Moon, and Stars, controlled by Gods like Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite
2.Low Heaven or sky where birds fly - controlled by man
1. Water and Land. - fish, animals and vegetation controlled by man
Warmly,
Jay Raskin
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Last edited by PhilosopherJay on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
