The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

The kou is the clue to break this case wide open.
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by StephenGoranson »

Strawman department:
“I am telling you straight out - I don't see any explanation to To Theodore's kou, ku, kou, kou that involves Morton Smith. No chance of explaining that even with a bald, gay, Sabbatean, para-suicidal assistant professor of religion trying to create a zombie race of homosexual warriors. We'll see.

Skilled paleographical studies are welcome, though, leaving aside bald and “zombie race of homosexual warriors”:

a) whether or not M. S. was gay—unknown by me—is not necessary to know in order to compose a literary character who might be.
b) I don’t claim M. S. was a Sabbatean, but that a literary character might be composed who somewhat resembled one, in one interpreter’s mind, putatively avant la lettre.
c) “para-suicidal”—I can’t even.
d) professor of history.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

This is all old news. The kou is new and can't be explained in the supposed fabrication of an American assistant professor of the Bible. Give me one good reason for the presence of the kou in the manuscript with Smith as its scribe or author.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

The scribe was Greek. I have a half dozen Greek experts to weigh in so far. The kou is the only anomaly, the answer to everything.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

On the trail of the beginnings of κος. I found an article and its author which notes that κύριος was abbreviated as κρ and κύρ in the Byzantine period.
The preposition κρ in Byzantine architecture Functions sources of the Byzantine dynasties, use of the later configuration (11th-15th c.) Η προσηγορία κῦρ στη βυζαντινή αρχιτεκτονία Λειτουργίες πηγές των βυζαντινών διανων, χρήση της ύστερης διαμόρφωσης (11ος-15ος αι.)
Google translate isn't working as well with modern Greek as other languages I've seen. Hmmm. Next paragraph:
The separate sources, carefully the honorary accusation sun is fragmentary, Liturgies that appear from the early and middle Byzantine times, and comes from the correspondence, from historical and hagiological works. The information of the sources about the late Byzantine era (11th-15th) and especially about the last Byzantine centuries (13th-15th century) is richer. In addition to the above categories of sources, the definition is found during these years in various types of documents, such as the imperial secretariat, provincial state officials, patriarchal, but also private (shops, dedications, wills, etc.). The term also appears in sources that complement the image of the social stratification of the population, such as in legislation, diplomatic correspondence and Western sources.

Το χωριστά πηγών, προσεκτικά η τιμητική προσηγορία κυρ είναι διαπασματικό, Λειτουργίες που εμφανίζομαι από τους πρώιους και μέσους βυζαντις χρόνους, και προέρχεται από την επιστολογραφία, από ιστορικά και αγιολογικά έργα. Πιο πλούσιες είναι οι πληροφορίες των πηγών για την ύστερη βυζαντινή εποχή (11ος15ος) και ιδιαίτερα για τους τελευταίους βυζαντινούς αιώνες (13ος-15ος αι.). Εκτός από τις παραπάνω κατηγορίες πηγών, ο προσδιορισμός κυρ απαντά στα χρόνια αυτά σε διαφόρων ειδών έγγραφα, όπως της αυτοκρατορικής γραμματείας, επαρχιακών κρατικών αξιωματούχων, πατριαρχικά, αλλά και ιδιωτικού χαρακτήρα (πωλητήρια, αφιερωτήρια, διαθήκες κά.). Επίσης ο όρος απαντά σε πηγές που συμπληρώνουν την εικόνα της κοινωνικής διαστρωμάτωσης του πληθυσμού, όπως σε νομοθετικά έργα, στη διπλωματική αλληλογραφία και σε δυτικές πηγές.
What does the author mean by Λειτουργίες? It keep reappearing and seems to be mistranslated in English. Hmmm. In ancient Greek the liturgy was a public service established by the city-state whereby its richest members, more or less voluntarily, financed the State with their personal wealth. WTF does it keep reappearing in this article written in modern Greek?
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

The next paragraph seems relevant:
The word κύριος comes from the homonymous ancient Greek adjective, which meant the one who has power over someone or something, the sovereign. The term was used as the name of many gods, such as Zeus, Hermes and others.3 In Byzantine times the lord declared the sovereign, 4 the owner5 and in addition characterized the triune god of the Christian religion and especially Jesus Christ.

Η λέξη κύριος προέρχεται από το ομώνυμο αρχαίο ελληνικό επίθετο, το οποίο δήλωνε αυτόν που έχει εξουσία σε κάποιον ή σε κάτι, τον κυρίαρχο. Ο όρος χρησιμοποιήθηκε ως επωνυμία πολλών θεών, όπως του Δία, του Ερμή και άλλων.3 Κατά τους βυζαντινούς χρόνους ο κύριος δήλωνε τον κυρίαρχο,4 τον ιδιοκτήτη5 και επιπλέον χαρακτήριζε τον τριαδικό θεό της χριστιανικής θρησκείας και ιδιαίτερα τον Ιησού Χριστό.
I am starting to see some of the mistakes Google translate is making. Every time it sees the Byzantine abbreviation κυρ Google renders it as 'sun.' In the next sentence for instance I had to correct.
The κυρ, as a characterization of distinguished persons, declared in the early Byzantine times the sovereign, the master. In a letter of John Chrysostom in the 4th century he mentions that "ἐπειδὴ δὲ καὶ τὴ κυρίᾳ μου Καρτερίᾳ πρώην ἦμεν ἐπεσταλκότες, ἔγνωμεν δὲ αὐτὴν μὴ διατρίβειν ἐκεῖσε", 7 while Markos Deacon refers to the Life of Bishop Gazos Porf Mr. Porphyrios.

Ο κυρ, ως χαρακτηρισμός διακεκριμένων προσώπων δήλωνε κατά τους πρώιμους βυζαντινούς χρόνους τον κυρίαρχο, τον αφέντη. Σε επιστολή του ο Ιωάννης Χρυσόστομος τον 4ο αιώνα αναφέρει ότι «ἐπειδὴ δὲ καὶ τὴ κυρίᾳ μου Καρτερίᾳ πρώην ἦμεν ἐπεσταλκότες, ἔγνωμεν δὲ αὐτὴν μὴ διατρίβειν ἐκεῖσε»,7 ενώ ο Μάρκος Διάκονος στο Βίο του επισκόπου Γάζας Πορφυρίου τον 5ο αιώνα αναφέρεται στον «δὲ ἐμὸ κύριο Πορφύριο».8 Επίσης στον Βίο του Αγίου Μάμαντος, που σώζεται σε πάπυρο του 5ου αιώνα, αναφέρεται ο διοικητής της Καισάρειας της Καππαδοκίας ως «κῦρις ἠγεμών».9
So the author's point seems to be that since the 5th century we have documents which use κυρ as an abbreviation for κύριος and this continues to be the abbreviation - presumably - until the end of the Byzantine era.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

As fate would have it even Saint Sabbas of 'Mar Saba' fame makes an appearance in the next paragraph:
From the 6th century the adjective κυρ began to be used as an honorary rebuke to respectable persons. Ioannis Malalas in the 6th c. in his Chronography he mentions that "ὁ δὲ βασιλεὺς Κωνσταντῖνος ἔπεμψε τὴν ἑαυτοῦ μητέρα τὴν κυρὰν Ἑλένην εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα εἰς ἀναζήτησιν τοῦ τιμιου σταυροῦ" .10 in the Life of Saint Savvas, he mentions the saint as "ὁ κύρις Savas" .11 In a papyrus of the 6th / 7th c. from Little Apollinopolis of Egypt it is reported that the tractator Flavius ​​Dioscurus donated to the bishop of the city of Senouth an amount of wheat and wine on an annual basis in favor of the health of his sister "κυρᾶς Marutos" .12 Theophanes the Confessor in the 9th century King Constantine ”and Theodoros Studitis in the same century mentions in a letter the patriarchate "κυρία Irene ”.13 In the 10th century the patriarch Nicholas Mystikos in his letters attributes the nickname κυρ to the emperors Romanos and Leontas.14 Despite the fact that the of the honorary prophecy in the sources of the early and middle Byzantine times are fragmentary, it can be argued that during these times he characterized mainly prominent people who are socially positioned in the aristocracy, such as a ruler, an empress, a high priest, but also persons revered, like a saint.

Από τον 6ο αιώνα το επίθετο κυρ άρχισε να χρησιμοποιείται ως τιμητική προσηγορία σε αξιοσέβαστα πρόσωπα. Ο Ιωάννης Μαλάλας τον 6ο αι. στη Χρονογραφία του αναφέρει ότι «ὁ δὲ βασιλεὺς Κωνσταντῖνος ἔπεμψε τὴν ἑαυτοῦ μητέρα τὴν κυρὰν Ἑλένην εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα εἰς ἀναζήτησιν τοῦ τιμίου σταυροῦ».10 Επίσης ο Κύριλλος Σκυθοπολίτης τον 6ο αι. στο Βίο του Αγίου Σάββα, αναφέρει τον άγιο ως «ὁ κύρις Σάβας».11 Σε πάπυρο του 6ου/7ου αι. από την Μικρά Απολλινόπολη της Αιγύπτου αναφέρεται ότι ο tractator Φλάβιος Διόσκουρος δώρισε στον επίσκοπο της πόλης Σενούθο μια ποσότητα σιταριού και κρασιού σε ετήσια βάση υπέρ της υγείας της αδελφής του «κυρᾶς Μαροῦτος».12 Ο Θεοφάνης Ομολογητής τον 9ο αιώνα στη Χρονογραφία του αναφέρει «τὸν κῦριν Κωνσταντῖνον βασιλέα» και ο Θεόδωρος Στουδίτης τον ίδιο αιώνα αναφέρει σε επιστολή του την πατρικία «κυρία Εἰρήνη».13 Τον 10ο αιώνα ο πατριάρχης Νικόλαος Μυστικός σε επιστολές του αποδίδει την προσωνυμία κυρ στους αυτοκράτορες Ρωμανό και Λέοντα.14 Παρά το γεγονός ότι οι αναφορές της τιμητικής προσηγορίας κυρ στις πηγές των πρώϊμων και μέσων βυζαντινών χρόνων είναι αποσπασματικές, είναι δυνατό να υποστηριχθεί ότι κατά τους χρόνους αυτούς χαρακτήριζε κατά κύριο λόγο πρόσωπα διακεκριμένα που τοποθετούνται κοινωνικά στο χώρο της αριστοκρατίας, όπως έναν ηγεμόνα, μια αυτοκράτειρα, έναν αρχιερέα, αλλά και πρόσωπα σεβαστά, όπως έναν άγιο.
And then again:
The nickname κυρ appears more often in sources from the end of the 10th century onwards and refers not only to very high officials, such as the emperor and his relatives, but also to highly respected persons, such as the patriarch, court officials, abbots of monasteries and distinguished monks. . In documents from the monastery of the Great Lavra of Mount Athos, the patriarch Nicholas, the 15th saint Athanasios the Athonite, the 16th patriarch and dependent Michael, the patriarch and general logist Leo are mentioned as the κυρ.17 Also Michael Attaliatic in the 11th century characterizes with the nickname κυρ the emperor Nikiforos Fokas18 and in his Order his son Theodoros, who was a mystographer and royal notary, 19 the first lady and ascetic κυρά Anastasso, 20 the nun and first lady κυρά Euphrosyne, 212 but also some κυρ Ignatius from persons of the upper social class, the honorary accusation κυρ was also attributed in the 11th century to respectable persons of the popular strata. We mention κυρ Konstantinos Lagoudis, a resident of Ierissos in Halkidiki, who together with his wife Maria dedicated their property to the monastery of Megisti Lavra on Mount Athos.23 However, these reports from the sources are fragmentary and can not lead to general conclusions about the season.

Η προσωνυμία κυρ απαντά συχνότερα στις πηγές από τα τέλη του 10ου αιώνα και εξής και αναφέρεται εκτός από πολύ υψηλά ιστάμενα πρόσωπα, όπως ο αυτοκράτορας και οι συγγενείς του, και σε ιδιαίτερα αξιοσέβαστα πρόσωπα, όπως ο πατριάρχης, αυλικοί αξιωματούχοι, ηγούμενοι μοναστηριών και διακεκριμένοι μοναχοί. Σε έγγραφα από τη μονή Μεγίστης Λαύρας του Αγίου Όρους ως κυρ αναφέρονται ο πατριάρχης Νικόλαος,15 ο όσιος Αθανάσιος ο Αθωνίτης,16 ο πρωτοσπαθάριος και εξαρτιστής Μιχαήλ, ο πατρίκιος και γενικός λογοθέτης Λέων.17 Επίσης ο Μιχαήλ Ατταλειάτης τον 11ο αιώνα στο ιστορικό έργο του χαρακτηρίζει με την προσωνυμία κυρ τον αυτοκράτορα Νικηφόρο Φωκά18 και στη Διάταξή του τον γιο του Θεόδωρο, που ήταν μυστογράφος και βασιλικός νοτάριος, 19 την πρωτοσπαθάρισσα και ασηκρήτισσα κυρά Αναστασώ,20 τη μοναχή και πρωτοσπαθάρισσα κυρά Ευφροσύνη,21 αλλά και κάποιον μοναχό κυρ Ιγνάτιο.22 Εκτός από πρόσωπα της ανώτερης κοινωνικής κατηγορίας, η τιμητική προσηγορία κυρ αποδιδόταν τον 11ο αιώνα και σε αξιοσέβαστα πρόσωπα των λαϊκών στρωμάτων. Αναφέρουμε τον κυρ Κωνσταντίνο Λαγούδη, κάτοικο της Ιερισσού στη Χαλκιδική, ο οποίος αφιέρωσε μαζί με τη σύζυγό του Μαρία στη μονή Μεγίστης Λαύρας του Αγίου Όρους την περιουσία τους.23 Οι αναφορές αυτές ωστόσο των πηγών είναι αποσπασματικές και δεν μπορούν να οδηγήσουν σε γενικά συμπεράσματα για την εποχή.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

And another Greek confirming what I naively discovered through a glancing at Google books:
Hello, I am not a specialist in linguistics, but I am pretty sure that the abbreviation Κος for Κύριος, in written language, does not exist before mid- or late 19th century.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

I am climbing up the food chain now, It is amazing how much can get accomplished by sending thousands of emails to complete strangers ... and Google translate. This sort of information ... in the hands of a complete imbecile like myself ... give me tools unavailable to Smith, Quesnell, Carlson virtually everyone who has ever written on this subject, read the kou and decided to themselves 'ignore this, stick to what I know.'
Secret Alias
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Re: The Presence (and Absence) of Nomina Sacra in To Theodore

Post by Secret Alias »

Some levity as I do my research:
The court case of the Babiniotis Dictionary (Greek: Υπόθεση Λεξικoύ Μπαμπινιώτη) was fought in Greece over the legality of the publication of a Modern Greek dictionary that included a definition of the word "Bulgarian" (referring to a person or persons).

George Babiniotis, professor of linguistics at Athens University, managed the publication of a dictionary in 1998, named Dictionary of Modern Greek, more commonly known as Babiniotis Dictionary. The dictionary was published by the Lexicology Centre.

For the word "Bulgarian" the dictionary provided a dual definition, first its normal use referring to persons descended from Bulgaria, and second a definition marked as vulgar and derogatory to denote a fan of PAOK football team.

On 23 May 1998 a person took legal action asking for the second definition to be deleted. The courts accepted the case with number 18134/1998 and agreed that the obscene definition had no place in a dictionary, so the publisher had to delete the second definition from every unsold copy of the dictionary or otherwise it couldn't be legally sold anymore. This was criticized by some people, including some law professors, and later the court case was reviewed by a higher court. On 22 April 1999 the higher court, with case number 13/1999, decided to overturn the decision of the lower court.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babinioti ... court_case
Obviously more of the 'bugger/Bulgar' situation we see in the English language. I doubt we have many football fans at this site. But Barcelona fans will know this PAOK football club because of what happened yesterday to one of their loaned out players who HORRIFICALLY ended his career there:

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