Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by davidmartin »

Comments about Paul being innocent of their blood I think was more to do with Paul saying that he had tried to tell them about what they needed to to before the end times, and if they didn't listen, then whatever happened to them at the end times would be their own fault.
But isn't the 'wrath of God' a thing of the present for Paul? It's not clear how his end times eschatology plays out, it's far less developed than his Christology?!

Well, if 'the wrath of God' is present then this passage is saying "those people who died - it was God's will that they did, don't blame me "for I did not keep back from declaring to you all the counsel of God". He prophecied they would die and they did, a la Ananias and Sapphira.
Thus this refers not to Christians he was persecuting pre-conversion but opponents within the broader movement, that would not accept some aspect of his gospel and thus had come under 'the wrath of God' (which was actually hired hitmen paid for by his congregation)

I believe that I can back this up with stuff from other places
Stuart
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Stuart »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:32 am
Stuart wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:11 pm Playing dodge ball?
No. That is not a suggestion that I would ever make, and I was not even sure you were really directing your words at me. But you quoted me, so I wanted to make sure.
I quoted the wrong element, it's RG Price. Sorry. I should not reply at 2am, wait until my morning coffee.
John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

rgprice wrote:

Paul comes into Jerusalem. He's preaching about Jesus. He gets apprehended, but not because he's preaching about Jesus per se, but about resurrection. He's taken to the Sanhedrin, where he talks about resurrection. The Sadducees attack him on the point of promoting belief in resurrection, and the Pharisees come to his defense. At no point is Jesus even brought up!

While Paul characterizes the reason for his trial as being because of his belief in resurrection, in context it implies his belief in Jesus (e.g., 23:11: "The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so also you must testify in Rome”).

Acts 21 says Paul was arrested for being the cause of a riot in Jerusalem because some Jews believed that he taught "against our people and against our law and against this place" and "brought Greeks into the temple," which implies awareness of his Torah-free gospel:

... some Jews from the province of Asiab saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28crying out, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches everywhere against our people and against our law and against this place. Furthermore, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.” 29For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, and they assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple.

30The whole city was stirred up, and the people rushed together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut. 31While they were trying to kill him, the commander of the Roman regimentc received a report that all Jerusalem was in turmoil. 32Immediately he took some soldiers and centurions and ran down to the crowd. When the people saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

33The commander came up and arrested Paul, ordering that he be bound with two chains. Then he asked who he was and what he had done.

34Some in the crowd were shouting one thing, and some another. And since the commander could not get at the truth because of the uproar, he ordered that Paul be brought into the barracks.

Then in Acts 22 Paul defends himself to the crowd by claiming to be Torah observant (like he says he pretended to be in 1 Cor. 9:20).

Then Paul declared, 3“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but raised in this city. I was educated at the feet of Gamaliel in strict conformity to the law of our fathers. I am just as zealous for God as any of you here today.

And what he says next indicates to me that those in power were aware that Paul believed that Jesus was the Messiah, since he says they backed his persecution of Christians. Do you suppose they had only wanted him to persecute Christians for their belief in resurrection?

4I persecuted this Way even to the death, detaining both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5as the high priest and the whole Council can testify about me. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and I was on my way to apprehend these people and bring them to Jerusalem to be punished.

Then it says that Paul's mission was to be a witness for Jesus "to everyone," which presumably included those in power he encountered.

There a man named Ananias, a devout observer of the law who was highly regarded by all the Jews living there ... said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear His voice. You will be His witness to everyone of what you have seen and heard.

Then it says why Paul was flogged and tried.

23As they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and tossing dust into the air, 24the commander ordered that Paul be brought into the barracks. He directed that Paul be flogged and interrogated to determine the reason for this outcry against him.

Then Acts 24 says that those in power charged Paul primarily with being a "ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes," and other Jews agreed with them. Do you suppose that they all did not know that Nazarenes believed in Jesus?

5We have found this man to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes, 6and he even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.b 8By examining him yourself, you will be able to learn the truth about all our charges against him.”

9The Jews concurred, asserting that these charges were true.



And then Paul says:

14I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect.

Again, do you suppose that those in power and other Jews did not know that "the Way, which they call a sect" believed in Jesus? Then Acts goes on to explicitly connect the Way with Jesus:

22Then Felix, who was well informed about the Way ... 24After several days, Felix returned with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess. He sent for Paul and listened to him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.

Then Acts 25 says Festus and Agrippa and Bernice and Paul's accusers were aware that Paul believed in Jesus and should be tried "on these charges":

But when his accusers rose to speak, they did not charge him with any of the crimes I had expected. 19They only had some contentions with him regarding their own religion and a certain Jesus who had died, but whom Paul affirmed to be alive. 20Since I was at a loss as to how to investigate these matters, I asked if he was willing to go to Jerusalem and be tried there on these charges.

So according to Acts, Jews in Jerusalem and those in power (including Roman governors) were aware that Paul believed in Jesus. Then in Acts 26 it is again noted that those in power were aware of Jesus:

I too was convinced that I ought to do all I could to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth ... I am speaking words of truth and sobriety. 26For the king knows about these matters, and I can speak freely to him. I am confident that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner.

So it appears to me that Paul's trial was about his belief in Jesus and the unrest that it caused in Jerusalem and that his defense was that this belief was in keeping with normative Judaism.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

Why on earth is someone is blatantly superficial as John2/Steven weighing in on a conversation about essentially ... the limitations of Acts. The OP is essentially about Acts developing from the tradition (witnessed in the Clementines) that Paul only knew Jesus as a visionary experience. That's the fucking point of the thread. Given the person who started the discussion it's clearly meant to reinforce the idea that Jesus never existed ... that's why Paul's visionary experience is the only context for the Jews. They never saw Jesus. No one knows about Jesus.

Why suddenly Steve-Avery-John2 thinks its appropriate to turn the discussion to one of his moronic interests/obsessions is beyond me:
So it appears to me that Paul's trial was about his belief in Jesus and the unrest that it caused in Jerusalem and that his defense was that this belief was in keeping with normative Judaism.
Why is obtuse brain wading into a conversation about Jesus mythicism? What does this emphasis on 'normative Judaism' have anything to do with the pages that precedes it? The point of the thread isn't whether Paul is portrayed as a former Pharisee or was in keeping with normative Judaism. These are things that you as a lapsed Jew obsess over. The discussion is supposed to be about something like 'isn't it strange that it's Paul's visionary experience with Jesus' which is at the heart of the 'Paul portion' (the second part of Acts).

Why does John2 do this? Why does Charles do this? What John2 is saying has zero relevance to the OP. He doesn't even bother to contextualize his obsession with an alleged 'normative Jewish basis to Christianity.' Must be just sitting at home bored trying to make friends ON HIS TERMS at this forum. I know you can only 'believe' in Acts. You are incapable of thinking critically about anything let alone the Acts of the Apostles. Just keep your mouth shut for once.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Charles Wilson »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:37 pmWhy does Charles do this?
...Because there is something there, that's why.

Mark 1: 7 (RSV):

[7] And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

John 1: 15, 29 - 30 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")
***
[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'

This is all Priestly, going back to 1 Chronicles 24. John is of Bilgah, the created "Jesus" character is of Immer.
I'm very sorry you don't see the Word-Play.

It's there whether I'm here or not - and the week isn't over.
In order to see it, however, you have to take the first step and that you haven't done.
rgprice
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by rgprice »

@john2:
Then it says that Paul's mission was to be a witness for Jesus "to everyone," which presumably included those in power he encountered.
First of all, it says nothing about Jesus, it talks about the Righteous One. The very point is that doing stuff like associating "the Righteous One" with Jesus is an assumption that gets made within the context of the Christian narrative, but if you take the material on its own, without brining these assumptions to it, you see its not actually saying that.

Secondly, read that passage and think about it.

"14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’"

Let's assume that the Righteous One = Jesus, i.e. that "his name" is Yeshu'a. Ananias is telling Paul that Paul has been chose to "be the voice" of this heavenly deity. Paul is chosen to be a messenger for a heavenly being. Why would Paul need to be a voice for "the Righteous One", if "the Righteous One" had just been on earth a few years prior preaching with his own mouth? The whole scenario implies that Ananias' concept of "the Righteous One" is a heavenly being who needs human messengers, i.e. prophets, to be his mouthpiece on earth.

This sounds an awfully lot like typical Jewish demonology/angelology.
Then Acts 24 says that those in power charged Paul primarily with being a "ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes," and other Jews agreed with them. Do you suppose that they all did not know that Nazarenes believed in Jesus?
What makes you think so? Nothing in the text leads to that conclusion. Its an inference you make based on assumptions about the validity of the Gospel stories. Based on this portion of Acts alone it sounds like there was some sect called the Nazarenes, who preached in opposition to the ruling powers in Jerusalem. This is a well known thread that run throughout Hellenistic and early Roman Jewish history. From the Maccabean revolt on we hear constantly of Jewish sects who were in opposition to whatever high priest was in power and were working to undermine them along with whatever ruling authorities their were, whether it was the Seleucids, the Hasmoneans, or the Romans. All along the way Jewish and foreign leaders we having various opposition groups arrested and sometimes killed. There was a constant vigil against Jewish opposition sects.
So it appears to me that Paul's trial was about his belief in Jesus and the unrest that it caused in Jerusalem and that his defense was that this belief was in keeping with normative Judaism.
You're misrepresenting the quote. You made it look like the thing Paul says the king knows about is Jesus of Nazareth. But that's now what the text says. The text says:

"22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

24 At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”

25 “I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. 26 The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”"

The text has Paul saying that the king is familiar with the words of the prophets, not that he's familiar with Jesus.
So according to Acts, Jews in Jerusalem and those in power (including Roman governors) were aware that Paul believed in Jesus. Then in Acts 26 it is again noted that those in power were aware of Jesus:
Indeed, this is the only real mention of Jesus in the whole trial. But in that mention we get no details at all. It says there was a Jesus "who had died" but Paul claimed "was alive." That would clearly have to be a misunderstanding or would be talking about something totally different from the Jesus of Paul's visions. Claiming that someone is alive is different from claiming to have visions of someone in heaven.

Secondly, this says, "a certain Jesus who had died," which is quite different from, "a certain Jesus that the Sanhedrin had put to death for being a seditious blasphemer."

The point is, here Paul is being interrogated by the Sanhedrin, the very body who, according to the Gospels, sentenced Jesus to death, and there is no discussion about Jesus at all. The Sanhedrin doesn't explain to Paul why Jesus was killed and why worshiping him is wrong, and Paul makes no defense of the human Jesus to explain why worshiping him is right! There is no discussion at all of the main event supposedly at the heart of the whole matter!

The entire heart of the Gospel story is the idea that Jesus' unjust execution was a sacrificial act that absolved the sins of the righteous/those who have faith in him/Gentiles/the world/whatever may be the claim. Paul is now standing before the very people who supposedly brought about that sacrifice and made all of this unfold. These people were the instrument of the most significant act in the history of the world according to the Christian narrative. And here Paul is, now standing before THE VERY PEOPLE WHO KILLED JESUS, and not a thing is said about it!

Even if you try to claim that maybe the body of the Sanhedrin had completely changed between the time of Pilate and Festus, about 20 years, surely the body would still either defend prior ruling or acknowledge its error. Either they would be defenders of the prior body or they would be an all new group of people who had been appointed to oppose the prior body. I'm sure it could be worked out to some degree from Josephus what the state of the Sanhedrin was at that point. I'm not sure. I know there was a lot of politics going on around it. But I believe that the body was stable and consisted of elders with long standing leadership in Jerusalem. No matter what the case, if anything like the Gospel scene had actually played out people on the Sanhedrin Paul was facing would have had deep knowledge of it, especially if, as you read into it, order had been given and carried out to arrest and put down a movement inspired by this person's execution.

So the claim is that this Jesus person had been executed at the order of the Sanhedrin, that a large scale campaign was being waged, of which Paul was a part, to put down a rebellion that had been incited by followers of this Jesus of Nazareth whom the Sanhedrin had sentenced. Everyone at that point would have to know who he was. He would have been an infamous figurehead - someone on the order of Osama bin Laden. And here Paul is now facing trial in front of the body who sentenced this Osama bin Laden type figure to death, and they don't even discuss it!?

"there was a Jesus guy who died that Paul says is alive." Oh, you mean the guy who was the leader of the Nazarene sect, whose execution apparently necessitated a mass order for widespread persecution to root out a rebel movement?

You see how none of this is adding up right?

So the point of all this is, the very nature of this Acts narrative leads to the conclusion that the narrative is in fact based on an earlier source that was produced prior to the Gospels, and the writer of Acts followed that pre-Gospel narrative, even though it no longer really made sense in the larger post-Gospel context.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:31 am the conclusion that the narrative is in fact based on an earlier source that was produced prior to the Gospels, and the writer of Acts followed that pre-Gospel narrative, even though it no longer really made sense in the larger post-Gospel context.
you conclusion is very similar to that of a past French Mythicist, Marc Stéphane, who argued for this pre-Gospel narrative as evidence of a Jesus story where Pilate was absent and only Jews killed (directly) Jesus.

But you are seeing in the text another striking anomaly: even the same idea that the Jews killed Jesus is absent in the text.

That makes the Acts portion not only pre-Gospel, but also contemporary at Paul.

Very thanks for that.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

My point again is about etiquette. If John2 wants to discuss normative Judaism in the Acts of Apostles - fine. But please address your comments or additions to the discussion REFERENCING THE IDEAS RAISED IN THE OP!!!!!!
John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

rgprice wrote:

The point is, here Paul is being interrogated by the Sanhedrin, the very body who, according to the Gospels, sentenced Jesus to death, and there is no discussion about Jesus at all. The Sanhedrin doesn't explain to Paul why Jesus was killed and why worshiping him is wrong, and Paul makes no defense of the human Jesus to explain why worshiping him is right! There is no discussion at all of the main event supposedly at the heart of the whole matter!

But the lack of discussion "of the main event" by the Sanhedrin strikes me as serving to show that the Pharisees and Sadducees would rather argue about resurrection than what the reader knows (based on Mark, Matthew, Luke and rest of Acts) is the "heart of the matter," i.e., the belief that Jesus was the Messiah and was resurrected and such. "Look how petty and blind these guys are" seems to be the point of it to me.

Let's assume that the Righteous One = Jesus, i.e. that "his name" is Yeshu'a.

But the reader would know this from Acts 7:52-53 ("Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One. And now you are His betrayers and murderers— you who received the law ordained by angels, yet have not kept it.”) That this refers to Jesus seems clear to me from what follows in 55-56:

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

The "son of man" is the one who "comes" in Daniel and 1 Enoch (which was known to Jude) and is associated with righteousness in the latter ("This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness"). And given that Jesus calls himself the "son of man" who will "come" in the gospel that Acts is appended to, I would sooner think that the Righteous One elsewhere in Acts is also Jesus.

And since Acts as we have it is appended to Luke (which has an earthly Jesus) and begins with a summary of the career of an earthly Jesus, I think the heavenly Jesus/Son of Man/Righteous One that was seen by Christians in Acts was understood by them to be the earthly Jesus in a post-resurrected form, as per the end of Luke and beginning of Acts, e.g., Lk. 24:19-23:

This man was a prophet, powerful in speech and action before God and all the people. Our chief priests and rulers delivered Him up to the sentence of death, and they crucified Him. But we were hoping He was the One who would redeem Israel. And besides all this, it is the third day since these things took place.

Furthermore, some of our women astounded us. They were at the tomb early this morning, but they did not find His body. They came and told us they had seen a vision of angels, who said that Jesus was alive ... This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Then Acts 24 says that those in power charged Paul primarily with being a "ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes," and other Jews agreed with them. Do you suppose that they all did not know that Nazarenes believed in Jesus?
What makes you think so? Nothing in the text leads to that conclusion. Its an inference you make based on assumptions about the validity of the Gospel stories. Based on this portion of Acts alone it sounds like there was some sect called the Nazarenes, who preached in opposition to the ruling powers in Jerusalem.



Yes, it is my inference based on the gospels (and the rest of Acts). While I don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah (or even in the idea of the Messiah), I do think Mark, Matthew, Luke and Acts were all written by c. 95 CE by people who knew people who knew an earthly Jesus who had preached in opposition to the ruling powers in Jerusalem and that this is why these writings present Jesus as such (prior to his resurrection, which I also don't believe in).

This is a well known thread that run throughout Hellenistic and early Roman Jewish history. From the Maccabean revolt on we hear constantly of Jewish sects who were in opposition to whatever high priest was in power and were working to undermine them along with whatever ruling authorities their were, whether it was the Seleucids, the Hasmoneans, or the Romans. All along the way Jewish and foreign leaders we having various opposition groups arrested and sometimes killed. There was a constant vigil against Jewish opposition sects.

Then what would be the big deal if the same thing happened to Jesus and his followers?

Ananias is telling Paul that Paul has been chose to "be the voice" of this heavenly deity. Paul is chosen to be a messenger for a heavenly being. Why would Paul need to be a voice for "the Righteous One", if "the Righteous One" had just been on earth a few years prior preaching with his own mouth? The whole scenario implies that Ananias' concept of "the Righteous One" is a heavenly being who needs human messengers, i.e. prophets, to be his mouthpiece on earth.

Because not everyone lived in Jesus' time and place or were alive at that time or believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

You're misrepresenting the quote. You made it look like the thing Paul says the king knows about is Jesus of Nazareth ... The text has Paul saying that the king is familiar with the words of the prophets, not that he's familiar with Jesus.

But the next verse (which you did not cite) says that the discussion about the prophets pertained to Jesus.

28Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Can you persuade me in such a short time to become a Christian?”
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

The point is, here Paul is being interrogated by the Sanhedrin, the very body who, according to the Gospels, sentenced Jesus to death, and there is no discussion about Jesus at all.
Why doesn't John2/Steve Avery address THAT. Not the other garbage that he usually promotes. Just deal with that.
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