Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

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John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:16 pm
The point is, here Paul is being interrogated by the Sanhedrin, the very body who, according to the Gospels, sentenced Jesus to death, and there is no discussion about Jesus at all.
Why doesn't John2/Steve Avery address THAT. Not the other garbage that he usually promotes. Just deal with that.

I have addressed this (if not in the post above). I infer (based on the gospel that Acts is appended to and the rest of Acts, such as the chief priest's backing of Paul's persecution of Christians) that the Sanhedrin were aware that "the Way" and the Nazarene sect believed that Jesus was the Messiah (i.e., the very thing that distinguished them from other Jews).

5"We have found this man to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" ...14I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect.

And Acts 25:14-20 says that Festus had discussed Paul's belief in Jesus with Agrippa and that the chief priests and elders were also aware of it and that this had been one of the charges against Paul.

Festus laid out Paul’s case before the king: “There is a certain man whom Felix left in prison. While I was in Jerusalem, the chief priests and elders of the Jews presented their case and requested a judgment against him ... I sat on the judgment seat and ordered that the man be brought in. But when his accusers rose to speak, they did not charge him with any of the crimes I had expected. They only had some contentions with him regarding their own religion and a certain Jesus who had died, but whom Paul affirmed to be alive. Since I was at a loss as to how to investigate these matters, I asked if he was willing to go to Jerusalem and be tried there on these charges.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

So you see evidence of the Jews knowledge of Jesus here:
Five days later the high priest Ananias went down to Caesarea with some of the elders and a lawyer named Tertullus, and they brought their charges against Paul before the governor. 2 When Paul was called in, Tertullus presented his case before Felix: “We have enjoyed a long period of peace under you, and your foresight has brought about reforms in this nation. 3 Everywhere and in every way, most excellent Felix, we acknowledge this with profound gratitude. 4 But in order not to weary you further, I would request that you be kind enough to hear us briefly.

5 “We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect 6 and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him. [7] [a] 8 By examining him yourself you will be able to learn the truth about all these charges we are bringing against him.”

9 The other Jews joined in the accusation, asserting that these things were true.

10 When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: “I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense. 11 You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13 And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

17 “After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. 18 I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance. 19 But there are some Jews from the province of Asia, who ought to be here before you and bring charges if they have anything against me. 20 Or these who are here should state what crime they found in me when I stood before the Sanhedrin— 21 unless it was this one thing I shouted as I stood in their presence: ‘It is concerning the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you today.’”

22 Then Felix, who was well acquainted with the Way, adjourned the proceedings. “When Lysias the commander comes,” he said, “I will decide your case.” 23 He ordered the centurion to keep Paul under guard but to give him some freedom and permit his friends to take care of his needs.

24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. 25 As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, “That’s enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.” 26 At the same time he was hoping that Paul would offer him a bribe, so he sent for him frequently and talked with him.

27 When two years had passed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus, but because Felix wanted to grant a favor to the Jews, he left Paul in prison.

25 Three days after arriving in the province, Festus went up from Caesarea to Jerusalem, 2 where the chief priests and the Jewish leaders appeared before him and presented the charges against Paul. 3 They requested Festus, as a favor to them, to have Paul transferred to Jerusalem, for they were preparing an ambush to kill him along the way. 4 Festus answered, “Paul is being held at Caesarea, and I myself am going there soon. 5 Let some of your leaders come with me, and if the man has done anything wrong, they can press charges against him there.”

6 After spending eight or ten days with them, Festus went down to Caesarea. The next day he convened the court and ordered that Paul be brought before him. 7 When Paul came in, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him. They brought many serious charges against him, but they could not prove them.

8 Then Paul made his defense: “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.”

9 Festus, wishing to do the Jews a favor, said to Paul, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me there on these charges?”

10 Paul answered: “I am now standing before Caesar’s court, where I ought to be tried. I have not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well. 11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!”

12 After Festus had conferred with his council, he declared: “You have appealed to Caesar. To Caesar you will go!”

Festus Consults King Agrippa
13 A few days later King Agrippa and Bernice arrived at Caesarea to pay their respects to Festus. 14 Since they were spending many days there, Festus discussed Paul’s case with the king. He said: “There is a man here whom Felix left as a prisoner. 15 When I went to Jerusalem, the chief priests and the elders of the Jews brought charges against him and asked that he be condemned.

16 “I told them that it is not the Roman custom to hand over anyone before they have faced their accusers and have had an opportunity to defend themselves against the charges. 17 When they came here with me, I did not delay the case, but convened the court the next day and ordered the man to be brought in. 18 When his accusers got up to speak, they did not charge him with any of the crimes I had expected. 19 Instead, they had some points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a dead man named Jesus who Paul claimed was alive. 20 I was at a loss how to investigate such matters; so I asked if he would be willing to go to Jerusalem and stand trial there on these charges. 21 But when Paul made his appeal to be held over for the Emperor’s decision, I ordered him held until I could send him to Caesar.”

22 Then Agrippa said to Festus, “I would like to hear this man myself.”

He replied, “Tomorrow you will hear him.”

Paul Before Agrippa
23 The next day Agrippa and Bernice came with great pomp and entered the audience room with the high-ranking military officers and the prominent men of the city. At the command of Festus, Paul was brought in. 24 Festus said: “King Agrippa, and all who are present with us, you see this man! The whole Jewish community has petitioned me about him in Jerusalem and here in Caesarea, shouting that he ought not to live any longer. 25 I found he had done nothing deserving of death, but because he made his appeal to the Emperor I decided to send him to Rome. 26 But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write. 27 For I think it is unreasonable to send a prisoner on to Rome without specifying the charges against him.”
To me what is highlighted - at the end of Acts I might add - is consistent with the idea that Paul introduced the idea of Jesus and his resurrection to the Jews or at least there is nothing here to contradict that understanding. Can you point to what contradicts this understanding?
John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

I've already cited four things from the above (and other things in Acts and its overall context) and gave my reasons for seeing them as evidence that Jews (and Romans) had knowledge of Jesus before Paul.


5 “We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect ..."

14 "I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect."

19 Instead, they had some points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a dead man named Jesus who Paul claimed was alive.

22 Then Felix, who was well acquainted with the Way, adjourned the proceedings ... 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.



What do you suppose was so distinctive about the Way/Nazarenes in the minds of other Jews if not the belief in Jesus as the Messiah? And what things about the Way do you think Felix was "well acquainted with" if not the belief in Jesus as the Messiah (or at least as someone they regarded as important)?
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

But its obvious that Agrippa is being told about an argument between Paul and the Jews from earlier in Acts. Is there evidence in those disputes that the Jews knew who Jesus was outside of Paul?
John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:38 pm But its obvious that Agrippa is being told about an argument between Paul and the Jews from earlier in Acts. Is there evidence in those disputes that the Jews knew who Jesus was outside of Paul?

Well, when Paul arrives in Jerusalem in Acts 21, James and all the elders tell him that "thousands of Jews have believed."

17When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us joyfully. 18The next day Paul went in with us to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and recounted one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses ...

And in Acts 8 and 9 Paul persecuted Christians and had the backing of the high priest. What do you suppose the pre-Christian Paul and the high priest wanted Christians to be persecuted for if not their belief in Jesus as the Messiah?

And what about Stephen in Acts 6?

8Now Stephen, who was full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. 9But resistance arose from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and men from the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. They began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up to his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

11Then they prompted some men to say, “We heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God.”

12So they stirred up the people, elders, and scribes and confronted Stephen. They seized him and brought him before the Sanhedrin, 13where they presented false witnesses who said, “This man never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14For we have heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.”

Or the scattered Christians in Acts 8?

4Those who had been scattered [by persecution prior to Paul's conversion] preached the word wherever they went.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

You're just making up nonsense. None of the passages explain the context of the statement ABOUT PAUL before Agrippa.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

You are one of many people at the forum who willfully misrepresents material to suit a pre-existent POV.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

I am not a mythicist per se but you have to be fair and give it to them for this observation about Acts. It is surprising how little the Jews and Agrippa know about Jesus outside of Paul.
John2
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:40 pm I am not a mythicist per se but you have to be fair and give it to them for this observation about Acts. It is surprising how little the Jews and Agrippa know about Jesus outside of Paul.

Agrippa may not have known anything about Jesus before Paul was arrested, but others in power were certainly aware that Christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah (according to the passages I cited above), and again Acts 21 says that "thousands of Jews have believed" prior to Paul's arrival in Jerusalem.

As far as Agrippa goes, I gather he was born c. 30 CE and wasn't in power until, what, the 50's? Do you suppose every Herodian knew about every Fourth Philosopher with Jerusalem Syndrome? In any event, my only point about the Agrippa passage is that he was aware that Paul's arrest had something to do with the belief that Jesus was the Messiah.
Secret Alias
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Re: Funny thing about Acts... (Paul's trial)

Post by Secret Alias »

It's like talking to a brick wall. Good night.
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