LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

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JoeWallack
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LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcal1BmZhJQ

JW:
Sometimes it's hard to appreciate progress when it happens gradually in your lifetime. For most of its history CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) had great commercial success subtly resolving translations issues in its favor by simply torturing/killing anyone who publicly opposed. The Church though finally made the great mistake when Martin Luthifer's Pope decided that as long as it was agreed that Church dogma was correct it would tolerate questioning why it was correct. Apparently the pope was out on a youth bender and failed to be on the receiving end of a memo from the hole spirit that once you were into men questioning which position to take (Stephen Carlson look out!) they would inevitably also question whether or not Church dogma was correct. This led to the birth of the opposite of the virgin birth, Skepticism.

Fasting forward to hyper-modern Internet times, CBS assumed that it could use the Internet to advance the goals of Christianity by reaching people they would otherwise not reach who lived in non-Christian environments. Sadly/happily the Internet had the opposite effect, reducing the influence of Christianity in the world. This was because now arguments for things like religious translations could simply be decided by nothing more than the arguments standing by themselves. No longer was the argument won by resorting to the physical or at least the quantity and quality of shouting.

Case in point, modern Christian translations of Isaiah 7:14. For the uninitiated, the Hebrew word there is an unequivocal "young women" but Christian translations have traditionally/dishonestly translated as "virgin". In Polemics this was an historic victory for Counter-Missionaries some time ago but only in relatively recent times have the superior Christian translations confessed their translation sin. And now this:

New Revised Standard Version
The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) is an English translation of the Bible published in 1989 by the National Council of Churches. It is a revision of the Revised Standard Version, which was itself an update of the American Standard Version.[2]
7
NRSV RSV ASV
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman[a] is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.b

Read full chapter
Footnotes

Isaiah 7:14 Gk the virgin
Isaiah 7:14 That is God is with us
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman[a] shall conceive and bear b a son, and shall call his name Imman′u-el.[c]

Read full chapter
Footnotes

Isaiah 7:14 Or virgin[a]
Isaiah 7:14 Or is with child and shall bear
Isaiah 7:14 That is God is with us
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, [a]a b virgin [c]shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name [d]Immanuel.

Read full chapter
Footnotes

Isaiah 7:14 Or, the
Isaiah 7:14 Or, maiden
Isaiah 7:14 Or, is with child, and beareth
Isaiah 7:14 That is, God is with us.


Joseph

WOMAN, n.

An animal usually living in the vicinity of Man, and having a
rudimentary susceptibility to domestication. It is credited by
many of the elder zoologists with a certain vestigial docility
acquired in a former state of seclusion, but naturalists of the
postsusananthony period, having no knowledge of the seclusion,
deny the virtue and declare that such as creation's dawn beheld,
it roareth now. The species is the most widely distributed of all
beasts of prey, infesting all habitable parts of the globe, from
Greenland's spicy mountains to India's moral strand. The popular
name (wolfman) is incorrect, for the creature is of the cat kind.
The woman is lithe and graceful in its movement, especially the
American variety (felis pugnans), is omnivorous and can be
taught not to talk.

Skeptical Textual Criticism

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mlinssen
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by mlinssen » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:05 am

Priceless

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GakuseiDon
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:47 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm
Case in point, modern Christian translations of Isaiah 7:14. For the uninitiated, the Hebrew word there is an unequivocal "young women" but Christian translations have traditionally/dishonestly translated as "virgin".
Is it dishonest, though? I thought it was because the Hebrew word "almah" was used for "girl" with a natural meaning of "virgin". What was the word used for non-virgin girls, I wonder?

I know a lot more Japanese than I do ancient Hebrew, and there is a similar situation there also. The word "shoujo" (少女) means "girl" with a connotation of "virgin" (though there is a more specific word for "virgin" as well).

I also thought that Isaiah 7:14 was suggesting that a girl who is a virgin will have sex and then conceive a child (so, not a virgin at the end of the process). So nothing to do with supernatural impregnation?

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by mlinssen » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:51 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:47 am
JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm
Case in point, modern Christian translations of Isaiah 7:14. For the uninitiated, the Hebrew word there is an unequivocal "young women" but Christian translations have traditionally/dishonestly translated as "virgin".
Is it dishonest, though? I thought it was because the Hebrew word "almah" was used for "girl" with a natural meaning of "virgin". What was the word used for non-virgin girls, I wonder?

I know a lot more Japanese than I do ancient Hebrew, and there is a similar situation there also. The word "shoujo" (少女) means "girl" with a connotation of "virgin" (though there is a more specific word for "virgin" as well).

I also thought that Isaiah 7:14 was suggesting that a girl who is a virgin will have sex and then conceive a child (so, not a virgin at the end of the process). So nothing to do with supernatural impregnation?
Girl naturally means virgin?
So boy also naturally means virgin?

What's the word for non-virgin boy then?

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GakuseiDon
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:10 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:51 am
Girl naturally means virgin?
So boy also naturally means virgin?

What's the word for non-virgin boy then?
That's a really interesting question! Does any culture, ancient or modern, have a word for non-virgin boy or girl? Or is the implication "virgin" by default?

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:21 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:47 am
JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm
Case in point, modern Christian translations of Isaiah 7:14. For the uninitiated, the Hebrew word there is an unequivocal "young women" but Christian translations have traditionally/dishonestly translated as "virgin".
Is it dishonest, though? I thought it was because the Hebrew word "almah" was used for "girl" with a natural meaning of "virgin". What was the word used for non-virgin girls, I wonder?
These words denote different properties. A "girl" is also a "daughter" but the word "girl" should not be translated as "daughter" or "virgin".

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GakuseiDon
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:24 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:21 pm
These words denote different properties. A "girl" is also a "daughter" but the word "girl" should not be translated as "daughter" or "virgin".
Yes, I understand that. Justin Martyr 'discusses' this with Trypho in his Dialogue with Trypho:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
And Trypho answered, "The Scripture has not, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,' but, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son,' and so on, as you quoted. But the whole prophecy refers to Hezekiah, and it is proved that it was fulfilled in him, according to the terms of this prophecy. Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower. And you ought to feel ashamed when you make assertions similar to theirs, and rather[should] say that this Jesus was born man of men. And if you prove from the Scriptures that He is the Christ, and that on account of having led a life conformed to the law, and perfect, He deserved the honour of being elected to be Christ,[it is well]; but do not venture to tell monstrous phenomena, lest you be convicted of talking foolishly like the Greeks."
But I know how hard it is to decide between literal translation vs meaningful translation. Would an ancient Hebrew reading Isaiah 7:14 think that it's a reasonable assumption that the girl being referred to was a virgin?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:07 pm

I do not think there is any word in any of the relevant ancient languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin) which is as scientifically exact as the modern English word "virgin" is. None of those languages treats the concept as forensically as we do.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:07 pm
I do not think there is any word in any of the relevant ancient languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin) which is as scientifically exact as the modern English word "virgin" is. None of those languages treats the concept as forensically as we do.
Thanks Ben. I suppose the question that I'm really asking is: does the Hebrew word 'almah' have such a range of connotation that either:

1. Isaiah 7:14 is the source for the idea of the virgin birth, since some Christians saw 'virgin' as the correct reading and felt it had to apply to Jesus' birth, or
2. Christians had the idea of a virgin birth from somewhere else, and then retrospectively applied that reading to 'almah' in Isaiah 7:14?

Is the meaning of 'almah' clear enough to rule out either of those options?

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by mlinssen » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:16 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

1. Isaiah 7:14 is the source for the idea of the virgin birth, since some Christians saw 'virgin' as the correct reading and felt it had to apply to Jesus' birth, or
2. Christians had the idea of a virgin birth from somewhere else, and then retrospectively applied that reading to 'almah' in Isaiah 7:14?

Is the meaning of 'almah' clear enough to rule out either of those options?
Slightly off topic perhaps, or not :lol:

Judges 13, YLT

2And there is a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danite, and his name [is] Manoah, his wife [is] barren, and hath not borne; 3and a messenger of Jehovah appeareth unto the woman, and saith unto her, ‘Lo, I pray thee, thou [art] barren, and hast not borne; when thou hast conceived, then thou hast borne a son. 4And, now, take heed, I pray thee, and do not drink wine, and strong drink, and do not eat any unclean thing, 5for, lo, thou art conceiving and bearing a son, and a razor doth not go up on his head, for a Nazarite to God is the youth from the womb, and he doth begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.’ 6And the woman cometh and speaketh to her husband, saying, ‘A man of God hath come unto me, and his appearance [is] as the appearance of a messenger of God, very fearful, and I have not asked him whence he [is], and his name he hath not declared to me; 7and he saith to me, Lo, thou art pregnant, and bearing a son, and now do not drink wine and strong drink, and do not eat any unclean thing, for a Nazarite to God is the youth from the womb till the day of his death.’

It is a perfect conflation, and a fine source for both the births: that of John (which has traces of Nazorite) as well as Jesus

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