LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

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GakuseiDon
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:38 pm

moses wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:32 am
"Female of young years. Also, an unmarried woman. Daughter. Girl. Virgin." (年の若い女。また、未婚の女性。むすめ。しょうじょ。処女。)

"female of young years" = child?
That's the definition given in an actual Japanese dictionary, which is unconnected to anything to do with the Bible. I guess it's a technical term to explain the range of meaning, from a girl to an unmarried (young) woman. I've never heard 年の若い女 used in conversation!

What is interesting is that the word used in the Japanese version of Isaiah 7:14 seems appropriate for "almah". They could have used a word more specific to "virgin", so perhaps it wasn't being translated from an English language version. But the word used does include "virgin" within its range of meaning, for whatever that's worth.

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by davidmartin » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:41 pm

moses wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:27 am
The angel makes an appearance to mary after she is already betrothed to joseph.
he tells her "you will conceive"
are pre-teens in jewish writings identified as virgins?


18Zechariah said to the angel, ‘How will I know that this is so? For I am an old man, and my wife is getting on in years.’

30The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son.... 34Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ 35The angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. 36And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God.’
does it make better sense to have mary say "how can this be, since i am too young" ?

30The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son.... 34Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am young?’ 35The angel said to her, ...... 36And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God.’

it seems her question makes better sense if it is translated as "too young"


any thoughts on this?

i wonder if there is some kind of connection

mary = too young too conceive
elizabeth = too old to conceive.
i long wondered if the virgin Mary was originally a confusion with Mary Magdalene in the sense that if Mary M was the spiritual mother figure this later became an actual mother (the vagaries of time and all that). Maybe there was some memory and confusion over this (Mary M was probably too young to have born Jesus) hence this tradition of the young virgin Mary. It's wild theory maybe. It is cute though!

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Post by JoeWallack » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:11 pm

JW:

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - -
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - -
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - -
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - -
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection - - -
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs - - -
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs - - -
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - -
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms - - -
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs - - -
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms - - -
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms - - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

Why Must You Be Such An Angry Young Man? GMark 1:41 - Was Jesus Angry?

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:41 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:12 pm
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:15 am
My opinion differs from GakuseiDon’s...
To be clear, I don't really have an opinion. My curiosity was sparked by JoeWallack's claim that translating "almah" as "virgin" was dishonest. Now, translating the word "tree" as "virgin" would be dishonest. But given how "girl" implies "virgin" in Japanese, I wondered if the same thing was true in ancient times. Then I wondered how Isaiah 7:14 factored into the virgin birth narrative itself. I have no knowledge of ancient Hebrew and Greek, so no opinion on how they should be translated outside the mainstream.
Okay, then it could be useful to know the following

1)
The word עַלְמָה (almah) occurs seven times in the Hebrew bible. The Septuagint translated five text passages close to the Hebrew text. The text passages with the other two occurrences are rather retellings with slight changes, additions and omissions.

The Septuagint used in four of the five close translated passages the Greek word „νεᾶνις“ (neanis) for עַלְמָה (almah). Only in Isaiah 7:14 παρθένος (parthenos) is used.

Exodus 2:8 Psalm 68:25 = LXX Psalm 67:26 Songs 1:3 Songs 6:8 Isaiah 7:14
Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, “Go.” The maiden (hā-‘al-māh - νεᾶνις) went and called the child’s mother. The singers went before, the minstrels followed after, in the midst of the ladies (ă-lā-mō-wṯ - νεανίδων) playing with tambourines, Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the young women (‘ă-lā-mō-wṯ – νεάνιδες) love you! There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and maidens (wa-‘ă-lā-mō-wṯ – νεάνιδες) without number, Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin (hā-‘al-māh, - παρθενος) shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


2)
The later Greek translations of the first and second century (Aquila, Theodotion and Symmachus) used also in Isaiah 7:14 „νεᾶνις“ (neanis) for עַלְמָה (almah). Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, Ch. 25, wrote:

1. God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. But not as some allege, among those now presuming to expound the Scripture, [thus: ] "Behold, a young woman shall conceive, and bring forth a son," as Theodotion the Ephesian has interpreted, and Aquila of Pontus, both Jewish proselytes.


3)
In the Hebrew text of Isaiah 7:14, the young woman is already pregnant. It‘s the same wording and the same temporal situation as in Genesis 16:11 while a future conception is mentioned in Judges 13:3.

Genesis 16:11
The angel of the LORD also said to her: "You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery

Judges 13:3
The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son.


Genesis 16:11 Isaiah 7:14 Judges 13:3
הָרָ֖ה hā-rāh הָרָה֙ hā-rāh וְהָרִ֖י hā-rîṯ
(feminine adjective) (feminine adjective) (verb in future)
pregnant pregnant to become pregnant


Mariottini wrote

The word hārāh means “pregnant.” The word is used by the Angel of the Lord to describe Hagar’s condition: “You are now with child (hārāh) and you will have a son” (Genesis 16:11). The same word was used when Tamar’s condition was reported to Judah: “Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the whore; moreover she is pregnant (hārāh) as a result of whoredom” (Genesis 38:24).

The word weyōledet in Hebrew is a verb, a qal participle feminine singular. Hebrew language does not have a present tense form, thus, it uses the participle to express a verbal action in the present time. The word weyōledet bēn should be translated “is giving birth to a son.”

What Isaiah is saying to King Ahaz is that the young woman is already pregnant and will give birth to a son. The reality of the woman’s pregnancy is clearly expressed in the NRSV: “Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son” (Isaiah 7:14). It is also expressed in the NET Bible: “Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son” (Isaiah 7:14 NET).

In the Hebrew text, the event being announced is present and not future. If the Hebrew indicates that the woman is already pregnant, why do the NIV and the KJV say that the event will be in the future?: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son” (Isaiah 7:14 NIV). The answer again is found in the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint the verb is a future tense, indicating that the pregnancy will occur in the future. Although the Greek text does not say how long in the future the birth will occur, the future pregnancy of the woman contradicts the message of Isaiah who proclaimed that the young woman was already pregnant when he confronted Ahaz and gave him God’s message.


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Your Hinneh Is Showing

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:10 am

JW:

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - the Lord
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - His
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - you
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - a sign
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". - Observe
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs - - -
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs - - -
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - -
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms - - -
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs - - -
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms - - -
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms - - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

Why Must You Be Such An Angry Young Man? GMark 1:41 - Was Jesus Angry?

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Matthew Makes A Whole Ass Out Himself

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:17 am

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy0rYUvn7To

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - the Lord
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - His
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - you
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - a sign
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". - Observe
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs The Hebrew prefix "הָ" is used which functions as the definite article. That means the subject was known to the audience and combined with the preceding "observe", was physically present.

עַלְמָ֗ה There are seven uses of the word in the Jewish Bible. Proverbs 30:19, Songs 1:3 and 6:8 indicate that "virgin" is not within the range of meaning.

Rashi deduces that the young woman is Isaiah's wife and this is what the textual evidence supports.
the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz. the young woman
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs - - -
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - -
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms - - -
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs - - -
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms - - -
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms - - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

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The Last Harrah

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:53 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56hqrlQxMMI

JW:

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - the Lord
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - His
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - you
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - a sign
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". - Observe
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs The Hebrew prefix "הָ" is used which functions as the definite article. That means the subject was known to the audience and combined with the preceding "observe", was physically present.

עַלְמָ֗ה There are seven uses of the word in the Jewish Bible. Proverbs 30:19, Songs 1:3 and 6:8 indicate that "virgin" is not within the range of meaning.

Rashi deduces that the young woman is Isaiah's wife and this is what the textual evidence supports.
the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz. the young woman
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs הָרָה֙ grammatically and by usage is in the perfected tense. "is pregnant". Rashi confesses that what is written is the perfect "is pregnant" but claims the supposed exception of Judges 13:3 as supporting the imperfected "will conceive" as what should be read (understood). Methinks The Rashi is wrong here though and the Judges can be read as "is pregnant".

Note that with the combination of the preceding "observe" and "the" young woman, the "is pregnant" here is likely a physical observation as well. Isaiah is literally pointing to a young woman who is noticeably pregnant.

Also note that in a summary of the tenses so far, God will give a sign to Isaiah's audience in the future. The young woman though is already pregnant so that is just part of the setting for whatever the sign is that will come in the future and not the sign itself.
is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.” is pregnant
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - -
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms - - -
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs - - -
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms - - -
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms - - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

The Case of the Missing Ending of the Gospel of Mark.

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What's My Name. Who's Your Daddy.

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:07 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImxuuD_kwM

JW:

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - the Lord
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - His
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - you
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - a sign
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". - Observe
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs The Hebrew prefix "הָ" is used which functions as the definite article. That means the subject was known to the audience and combined with the preceding "observe", was physically present.

עַלְמָ֗ה There are seven uses of the word in the Jewish Bible. Proverbs 30:19, Songs 1:3 and 6:8 indicate that "virgin" is not within the range of meaning.

Rashi deduces that the young woman is Isaiah's wife and this is what the textual evidence supports.
the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz. the young woman
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs הָרָה֙ grammatically and by usage is in the perfected tense. "is pregnant". Rashi confesses that what is written is the perfect "is pregnant" but claims the supposed exception of Judges 13:3 as supporting the imperfected "will conceive" as what should be read (understood). Methinks The Rashi is wrong here though and the Judges can be read as "is pregnant".

Note that with the combination of the preceding "observe" and "the" young woman, the "is pregnant" here is likely a physical observation as well. Isaiah is literally pointing to a young woman who is noticeably pregnant.

Also note that in a summary of the tenses so far, God will give a sign to Isaiah's audience in the future. The young woman though is already pregnant so that is just part of the setting for whatever the sign is that will come in the future and not the sign itself.
is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.” is pregnant
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - and will bear
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms The first part of the prophecy. A 50/50 chance of success, equal to a stock broker or political pundit and only slightly better than a weatherman. - a son
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs The verb is in the perfected.

The verb is also feminine.

The Rashi correctly observes that Isaiah's prophecy here is expanded to include the young woman's prophecy. She will name the son the prophetic name. More support for the young woman being present and known (so to speak) to Isaiah. If he can see her then she can hear him.
and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her. and she calls
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms "she calls his name". A Hebrew idiom for "names him".

When I compare what Isaiah wrote with what "Matthew" wrote Isaiah wrote we will see that among other dishonest changes "Matthew" substitutes "they" for "she" here exorcising the Hebrew idiom of naming by the young woman and replaces it with the son's future audience, "they will call/refer to him" as...
- his name
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms - - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

Book Review of Tareq Baconi's Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance - Preface Only

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Immanuel Unravelling

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:56 pm

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZV1o_jodV4

7:14

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary The Rashi Commentary https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true Correct Translation
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - - Therefore
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). "He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will." will give
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - - the Lord
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - - His
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - - you
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - - a sign
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". - Observe
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs The Hebrew prefix "הָ" is used which functions as the definite article. That means the subject was known to the audience and combined with the preceding "observe", was physically present.

עַלְמָ֗ה There are seven uses of the word in the Jewish Bible. Proverbs 30:19, Songs 1:3 and 6:8 indicate that "virgin" is not within the range of meaning.

Rashi deduces that the young woman is Isaiah's wife and this is what the textual evidence supports.
the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz. the young woman
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs הָרָה֙ grammatically and by usage is in the perfected tense. "is pregnant". Rashi confesses that what is written is the perfect "is pregnant" but claims the supposed exception of Judges 13:3 as supporting the imperfected "will conceive" as what should be read (understood). Methinks The Rashi is wrong here though and the Judges can be read as "is pregnant".

Note that with the combination of the preceding "observe" and "the" young woman, the "is pregnant" here is likely a physical observation as well. Isaiah is literally pointing to a young woman who is noticeably pregnant.

Also note that in a summary of the tenses so far, God will give a sign to Isaiah's audience in the future. The young woman though is already pregnant so that is just part of the setting for whatever the sign is that will come in the future and not the sign itself.
is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.” is pregnant
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - - and will bear
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms The first part of the prophecy. A 50/50 chance of success, equal to a stock broker or political pundit and only slightly better than a weatherman. - a son
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs The verb is in the perfected.

The verb is also feminine.

The Rashi correctly observes that Isaiah's prophecy here is expanded to include the young woman's prophecy. She will name the son the prophetic name. More support for the young woman being present and known (so to speak) to Isaiah. If he can see her then she can hear him.
and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her. and she calls
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms "she calls his name". A Hebrew idiom for "names him".

When I compare what Isaiah wrote with what "Matthew" wrote Isaiah wrote we will see that among other dishonest changes "Matthew" substitutes "they" for "she" here exorcising the Hebrew idiom of naming by the young woman and replaces it with the son's future audience, "they will call/refer to him" as...
- his name
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - - is with us
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms Immanuel. Does not otherwise appear to be a known name in Hebrew.

So far, regarding Isaiah's prophecy, we have a prediction of a woman giving birth. Not very impressive at this point, like predicting that Trump's Presidency will end badly. The important part of the prophecy must follow even though "Matthew" stopped at this point.
Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth. God

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

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JoeWallack
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Matthew Makes A Whole Ass Out Himself

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:53 am

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZV1o_jodV4

7:14

[
Strong's Hebrew English Morphology Commentary Correct Translation "Matthew" Quote English Translation 1:23 The Skeptical Critical Commentary - "Matthew" The Skeptical Critical Commentary - Gospel of Mark
3651 [e] לָ֠כֵן lā-ḵên Therefore Adv - Therefore - -
5414 [e] יִתֵּ֨ן yit-tên will give V-Qal-Imperf-3ms Note that the verb is the Hebrew Imperfect (future). will give - -
136 [e] אֲדֹנָ֥י ’ă-ḏō-nāy the Lord N-proper-ms - the Lord - -
1931 [e] ה֛וּא hū He Pro-3ms - His - -
- לָכֶ֖ם lā-ḵem you Prep | 2mp - you - -
226 [e] א֑וֹת ’ō-wṯ; a sign N-cs - a sign - -
2009 [e] הִנֵּ֣ה hin-nêh behold Interjection A common word in the Jewish Bible. It can have either a figurative meaning (understand) or a literal meaning (look). When the related subject is a person it normally has a literal meaning hinneh. Everything that follows is consistent with this meaning. Isaiah is pointing out a subject that is known and present to his audience here, As the Brits say, "the cruncher". Observe Understand The underlying Greek word range of meaning goes from literal seeing to figurative understanding.
5959 [e] הָעַלְמָ֗ה hā-‘al-māh, the virgin Art | N-fs The Hebrew prefix "הָ" is used which functions as the definite article. That means the subject was known to the audience and combined with the preceding "observe", was physically present.

עַלְמָ֗ה There are seven uses of the word in the Jewish Bible. Proverbs 30:19, Songs 1:3 and 6:8 indicate that "virgin" is not within the range of meaning.

Rashi deduces that the young woman is Isaiah's wife and this is what the textual evidence supports.
the young woman - -
2030 [e] הָרָה֙ hā-rāh shall become pregnant Adj-fs הָרָה֙ grammatically and by usage is in the perfected tense. "is pregnant". Rashi confesses that what is written is the perfect "is pregnant" but claims the supposed exception of Judges 13:3 as supporting the imperfected "will conceive" as what should be read (understood). Methinks The Rashi is wrong here though and the Judges can be read as "is pregnant".

Note that with the combination of the preceding "observe" and "the" young woman, the "is pregnant" here is likely a physical observation as well. Isaiah is literally pointing to a young woman who is noticeably pregnant.

Also note that in a summary of the tenses so far, God will give a sign to Isaiah's audience in the future. The young woman though is already pregnant so that is just part of the setting for whatever the sign is that will come in the future and not the sign itself.
is pregnant - -
3205 [e] וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת wə-yō-le-ḏeṯ and bear Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fs - and will bear - -
1121 [e] בֵּ֔ן bên, a Son N-ms The first part of the prophecy. A 50/50 chance of success, equal to a stock broker or political pundit and only slightly better than a weatherman. a son - -
7121 [e] וְקָרָ֥את wə-qā-rāṯ and shall call Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-3fs The verb is in the perfected.

The verb is also feminine.

The Rashi correctly observes that Isaiah's prophecy here is expanded to include the young woman's prophecy. She will name the son the prophetic name. More support for the young woman being present and known (so to speak) to Isaiah. If he can see her then she can hear him.
and she calls - -
8034 [e] שְׁמ֖וֹ šə-mōw His name N-msc | 3ms "she calls his name". A Hebrew idiom for "names him".

When I compare what Isaiah wrote with what "Matthew" wrote Isaiah wrote we will see that among other dishonest changes "Matthew" substitutes "they" for "she" here exorcising the Hebrew idiom of naming by the young woman and replaces it with the son's future audience, "they will call/refer to him" as...
his name - -
- עִמָּ֥נוּ ‘im-mā-nū - - - is with us - -
6005 [e] אֵֽל׃ ’êl. Immanuel N-proper-ms Immanuel. Does not otherwise appear to be a known name in Hebrew.

So far, regarding Isaiah's prophecy, we have a prediction of a woman giving birth. Not very impressive at this point, like predicting that Trump's Presidency will end badly. The important part of the prophecy must follow even though "Matthew" stopped at this point.
God - -

Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish


Joseph

BIRTH, n. The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

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