LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

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mlinssen
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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by mlinssen » Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:43 am

Comparing the Greek for all sources:

Judges 13

3 καὶ ὤφθη ἄγγελος Κυρίου πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτήν Ἰδοὺ σὺ στεῖρα καὶ οὐ τέτοκας, καὶ συλλήμψῃ υἱόν.
4 καὶ νῦν φύλαξαι δὴ καὶ μὴ πίῃς οἶνον καὶ μέθυσμα, καὶ μὴ φάγῃς πᾶν ἀκάθαρτον
5 ὅτι ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ σίδηρος οὐκ ἀναβήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ, ὅτι ναζεὶρ θεοῦ ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ τῆς κοιλίας· καὶ αὐτὸς ἄρξεται τοῦ σῶσαι τὸν Ἰσραὴλ ἐκ χειρὸς Φυλιστιείμ.
6 καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἡ γυνὴ καὶ εἶπεν τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς λέγουσα Ἄνθρωπος θεοῦ ἦλθεν πρὸς μέ, καὶ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ὡς εἶδος ἀγγέλου θεοῦ φοβερὸν σφόδρα· καὶ οὐκ ἠρώτησα αὐτὸν πόθεν ἐστίν, καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἀπήγγειλέν μοι.
7 καὶ εἶπέν μοι Ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν· καὶ νῦν μὴ πίῃς οἶνον καὶ μέθυσμα, καὶ μὴ φάγῃς πᾶν ἀκάθαρτον, ὅτι ἅγιον θεοῦ ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ γαστρὸς ἕως ἡμέρας θανάτου αὐτοῦ.


Isaiah 7

14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ λήμψεται καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ


Luke 1, BIB

13Εἶπεν (Said) δὲ (then) πρὸς (to) αὐτὸν (him) ὁ (the) ἄγγελος (angel), “Μὴ (Not) φοβοῦ (fear), Ζαχαρία (Zechariah), διότι (because) εἰσηκούσθη (has been heard) ἡ (the) δέησίς (prayer) σου (of you), καὶ (and) ἡ (the) γυνή (wife) σου (of You) Ἐλισάβετ (Elizabeth) γεννήσει (will bear) υἱόν (a son) σοι (to you), καὶ (and) καλέσεις (you shall call) τὸ (the) ὄνομα (name) αὐτοῦ (of him) Ἰωάννην (John).
14 καὶ (And) ἔσται (he will be) χαρά (joy) σοι (to you) καὶ (and) ἀγαλλίασις (gladness), καὶ (and) πολλοὶ (many) ἐπὶ (at) τῇ (the) γενέσει (birth) αὐτοῦ (of him) χαρήσονται (will rejoice).
15 ἔσται (He will be) γὰρ (for) μέγας (great) ἐνώπιον (before) ‹τοῦ› (the) Κυρίου (Lord); καὶ (and) οἶνον (wine) καὶ (and) σίκερα (strong drink) οὐ (no) μὴ (not) πίῃ (shall he drink), καὶ (and) Πνεύματος (of the Spirit) Ἁγίου (Holy) πλησθήσεται (he will be filled) ἔτι (even) ἐκ (from) κοιλίας (the womb) μητρὸς (of the mother) αὐτοῦ (of him).
16 καὶ (And) πολλοὺς (many) τῶν (of the) υἱῶν (sons) Ἰσραὴλ (of Israel) ἐπιστρέψει (he will turn) ἐπὶ (to) Κύριον (the Lord), τὸν (the) Θεὸν (God) αὐτῶν (of them).

This is about John the Baptist, JtB for intimi, Johannes the Immerser for those who take it literally

As you can see, there is verbatim agreement between Isaiah and Luke (the yellow), and "inspiration" in the rest. The colours are pairs, and Judges 3:13 uses the verb that Isaiah uses; it is fair to say that either Judges also draws on Isaiah or vice versa, or that these words are just very common and prone to occur in this context in the same order, or a bit of both perhaps.
In bold the words that are verbatim, in bold italics those that inspired

Basically the entire Samson birth story is this, and what I haven't highlighted is pretty much a repetition from what I have done so.
The story continues there but the man just wants to make certain, the angel appears again, repeats itself, etc. But... it ends with

24Καὶ ἔτεκεν ἡ γυνὴ υἱόν, καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Σαμψών· καὶ ἡδρύνθη τὸ παιδάριον, καὶ εὐλόγησεν αὐτὸ Κύριος. 25καὶ ἤρξατο πνεῦμα Κυρίου συνεκπορεύεσθαι αὐτῷ ἐν παρεμβολῇ Δὰν καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον Σαραὰ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον Ἐσθαόλ.

and Luke ends with

80Τὸ (-) δὲ (And) παιδίον (the child) ηὔξανεν (continued to grow) καὶ (and) ἐκραταιοῦτο (was strengthened) πνεύματι (in spirit); καὶ (and) ἦν (he was) ἐν (in) ταῖς (the) ἐρήμοις (deserted places) ἕως (until) ἡμέρας (the day) ἀναδείξεως (of appearance) αὐτοῦ (of him) πρὸς (to) τὸν (-) Ἰσραήλ (Israel).

Inspiration again, so going out on a limb. Different verb for grow, same scenery. "Blessed by the Lord" changes to "strengthened in spirit". And both last verses tell everything about the continuation of the story, designating the destination / location

Now, onto Jesus:

31καὶ (and) ἰδοὺ (behold), συλλήμψῃ (you will conceive) ἐν (in) γαστρὶ (womb), καὶ (and) τέξῃ (will bring forth) υἱόν (a son), καὶ (and) καλέσεις (you shall call) τὸ (the) ὄνομα (name) αὐτοῦ (of Him) Ἰησοῦν (Jesus). 32οὗτος (He) ἔσται (will be) μέγας (great), καὶ (and) Υἱὸς (Son) Ὑψίστου (of the Most High) κληθήσεται (He will be called); καὶ (and) δώσει (will give) αὐτῷ (Him) Κύριος (the Lord) ὁ (-) Θεὸς (God) τὸν (the) θρόνον (throne) Δαυὶδ (of David), τοῦ (of the) πατρὸς (father) αὐτοῦ (of Him);


Judges 13

3 καὶ ὤφθη ἄγγελος Κυρίου πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτήν Ἰδοὺ σὺ στεῖρα καὶ οὐ τέτοκας, καὶ συλλήμψῃ υἱόν.
4 καὶ νῦν φύλαξαι δὴ καὶ μὴ πίῃς οἶνον καὶ μέθυσμα, καὶ μὴ φάγῃς πᾶν ἀκάθαρτον
5 ὅτι ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ σίδηρος οὐκ ἀναβήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ, ὅτι ναζεὶρ θεοῦ ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ τῆς κοιλίας· καὶ αὐτὸς ἄρξεται τοῦ σῶσαι τὸν Ἰσραὴλ[/b] ἐκ χειρὸς Φυλιστιείμ.
6 καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἡ γυνὴ καὶ εἶπεν τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς λέγουσα Ἄνθρωπος θεοῦ ἦλθεν πρὸς μέ, καὶ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ὡς εἶδος ἀγγέλου θεοῦ φοβερὸν σφόδρα· καὶ οὐκ ἠρώτησα αὐτὸν πόθεν ἐστίν, καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἀπήγγειλέν μοι.
7 καὶ εἶπέν μοι Ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν· καὶ νῦν μὴ πίῃς οἶνον καὶ μέθυσμα, καὶ μὴ φάγῃς πᾶν ἀκάθαρτον, ὅτι ἅγιον θεοῦ ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ γαστρὸς ἕως ἡμέρας θανάτου αὐτοῦ.


Isaiah 7

14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ λήμψεται καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ

A double whammy there, with Luke being verbatim to Isaiah AND Judges, even using the verb of Judges that includes the prefix

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:39 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:07 pm
I do not think there is any word in any of the relevant ancient languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin) which is as scientifically exact as the modern English word "virgin" is. None of those languages treats the concept as forensically as we do.
The virginity of a girl was a very very significant quality in these cultures. The terms בְּתוּלָה (bethulah), παρθένος (parthenos) and virgo correspond very well to our modern understanding of a virgin.

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:12 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:24 pm
But I know how hard it is to decide between literal translation vs meaningful translation. Would an ancient Hebrew reading Isaiah 7:14 think that it's a reasonable assumption that the girl being referred to was a virgin?
Sorry GakuseiDon, only a man would think that way and draw this conclusion as the LXX translator obviously did. it's just a male fantasy! :D If the translator had been an old woman, she would have written "a good and hardworking daughter".

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:40 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:39 am
The virginity of a girl was a very very significant quality in these cultures. The terms בְּתוּלָה (bethulah), παρθένος (parthenos) and virgo correspond very well to our modern understanding of a virgin.
What is this based on? What do you do with the cases laid out in the usual lexical sources, cases which lead the lexicographers to define, for example, παρθένος primarily as maiden or girl and secondarily as virgin? (Why, for instance, does Heracles refer to Iole as a παρθένος in The Women of Trachis when he is making clear that he has slept with her?)

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Thalma and Bethalouis

Post by JoeWallack » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:44 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WfbmIkyISs&t=3s

JW:
The short answer is the Hebrew "almah" (used in 7:14) is the unequivocal "young woman" and the Greek "parthenos" (used in 1:23) is the equivocal (at the time) "virgin/young woman". So the interesting question is not what "almah" meant in 7:14, but what "parthenos" was intended to mean in Greek translations of 7:14 that "Matthew" used as a source (less interesting though because the "virgin birth" was likely not original to GMatthew).

I've never written a related detailed Thread here because there haven't been any serious Christians who have seriously argued "almah" meant "virgin" in a long time. It's like the political fundamentalists who have always followed Trump but have now reached their limit. There has never been a Jewish reference guide that included "virgin" within the range of meaning for "almah". "Almah" is used a number of times in the Jewish Bible, always with a meaning of "young woman". Hebrew and The Jewish Bible do use a dedicated word for "virgin" which is "bethulah". The Jewish Bible even goes to the trouble of explicitly defining the word:

Genesis 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
Note that this definition is also the first use of the word in The Bible. Reminds one of the following scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE

Father Brown in his related classic Birth quickly confessed that "almah" meant "young woman" (without the use of hardly any torture). I already showed that NRSV, the best Christian translation, now translates as "young woman". As a practical confirmation you could go to Israel and say to the female behind the counter either "Hey almah" or "Hey bethulah" and note the different reactions.

Ben, you can easily inventory the uses of "almah" and "bethulah" in the Jewish Bible. Other ancient uses are as rare as Giuliani's Ramadan greeting card collection. You can then look at "parthenos" in an ancient lexicon and see that it was equivocal for "young woman/virgin" (but you already knew that). It was GMatthew's misuse of "parthenos" that gave it a dominant meaning of "virgin" (took almost as long to convince Ehrman of that).

If we expand the issue to context, even though it's not needed here since the basic meanings are clear, there's nothing in the context supporting a meaning of "virgin". If we expand further to prophecy, the context is all over a contemporary prophecy like Lechner on Myggs.

Virgin/not virgin was a very important distinction in Hebrew writings and theory as opposed (so to speak) to Greek. In practice though (so to act), probably not as much.

spin apparently has gone wherever the hell Jesus has been for the last two thousand years.


Joseph

MAGDALENE, n. An inhabitant of Magdala. Popularly, a woman found out. This definition of the word has the authority of ignorance, Mary of Magdala being another person than the penitent woman mentioned by St. Luke. It has also the official sanction of the governments of Great Britain and the United States. In England the word is pronounced Maudlin, whence maudlin, adjective, unpleasantly sentimental. With their Maudlin for Magdalene, and their Bedlam for Bethlehem, the English may justly boast themselves the greatest of revisers.

http://skepticaltextualcriticism.blogsp ... Criticism

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:03 pm

For my part, I'm not saying "almah" meant "virgin". I'm thinking that a young woman would naturally be thought a virgin in context. The implication is where the idea of a virgin birth came from. Either:

1. Isaiah 7:14 is the source for the idea of the virgin birth, since some Christians reading through the Old Testament trying to 'find' Jesus' biography saw 'virgin' as the implication and felt it had to apply to Jesus' birth, or
2. Christians had the idea of a virgin birth from somewhere else, and then retrospectively applied that reading to 'almah' in Isaiah 7:14.

If (2), why did they think to apply that reading to Isaiah 7:14? Was the meaning close enough to use? If so, what made it close enough to use?

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by JoeWallack » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:02 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:03 pm
For my part, I'm not saying "almah" meant "virgin". I'm thinking that a young woman would naturally be thought a virgin in context. The implication is where the idea of a virgin birth came from. Either:

1. Isaiah 7:14 is the source for the idea of the virgin birth, since some Christians reading through the Old Testament trying to 'find' Jesus' biography saw 'virgin' as the implication and felt it had to apply to Jesus' birth, or
2. Christians had the idea of a virgin birth from somewhere else, and then retrospectively applied that reading to 'almah' in Isaiah 7:14.

If (2), why did they think to apply that reading to Isaiah 7:14? Was the meaning close enough to use? If so, what made it close enough to use?
JW:
Riiight. Why would a perfectly reasonable person think that saying a young woman was going to give birth might be a special, significant, possibly supernatural prediction.

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Re: LGBTQ - El's Greek Byzantine Translation Question

Post by GakuseiDon » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:07 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:02 pm
Why would a perfectly reasonable person think that saying a young woman was going to give birth might be a special, significant, possibly supernatural prediction.
Yep. That's the question. :cheers: What did the early Christians get out of applying that meaning to Isaiah 7:14, *especially* if it isn't the obvious meaning?

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Re: Thalma and Bethalouis

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:40 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:44 am
Hebrew and The Jewish Bible do use a dedicated word for "virgin" which is "bethulah". The Jewish Bible even goes to the trouble of explicitly defining the word:

Genesis 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
I am not sure that is a definition; it may be a qualification (as I understand the matter, the Hebrew is ambiguous on which kind of phrase it might be). Nor am I sure that you are correct about the range of bethulah; the lexical data are not a lock on that point. But... I am not going to press the point, because no opinion of mine hangs on it.

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Re: Thalma and Bethalouis

Post by mlinssen » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:50 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:44 am
Hebrew and The Jewish Bible do use a dedicated word for "virgin" which is "bethulah". The Jewish Bible even goes to the trouble of explicitly defining the word:

Genesis 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
Note that this definition is also the first use of the word in The Bible
I'm puzzled. "Neither" usually means "(as such / however) not", if I'm not mistaken?

"Joe was a funny guy. Neither his posts nor their youtube content received much laughs, however"
"Joe was a funny guy. Neither Ben nor GakuseiDon was funnier"

Yet what does neither mean without nor? "And also not", I think?
Shouldn't this thus read
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, and also not had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
So she was a "virgin", and in addition to that, not any man had known her?
That means that she was a young girl, not a virgin, who hadn't had sex yet. Saying that she was a virgin AND hadn't had sex yet is not very informative

We could also go the other way:
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, yet also not had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
So she was a hot looking babe, yet no one had had sex with her, as unbelievable as that is because she was so very luscious indeed

I'm afraid I can't go with the translation of virgin here, but perhaps the trick is in the translation with the word "neither" - or my bad English, of course

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