Gday all,
Thanks Leucius Charinus for that handy post about the 3rd heaven.
Wiki wrote:The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul's vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section.[15] The relationship of Paul the Apostle and Judaism is still widely disputed.
It certainly seems as if Paul knew the Apocalypse of Moses, for the reasons mentioned. It seems to me that Paul is validating his apostleship with stories of that vision he had in the 3rd heaven.
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Kapyong wrote:I contend Jesus was seen by mythicist Christians to have travelled from God to Air and back.
In the first or the second century of the common era?
Well, there is the key question isn't it?
Early first would be a mythical Jesus, second could be gnosticism.
Actually, I was a strong defender of mythicism, but after all these discussions I've had and books I've read, I've now come to soften my stance on the issue.Now, I'm more of an agnostic on Jesus than a hard-core mythicist. I've realised my position was biased by some personal experiences I had. I was also a bit disappointed with some of what Carrier had to say - he seems to be reaching a lot.
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Would you therefore categorise the author of the "Ascension of Isaiah" as a "mythicist Christian"?
Well, I'm not sure the dust has settled on that yet. On the one hand, GakuseiDon has shown that 'in your form' was probably present in the original, but the text is so mangled, it's hard to be sure of anything.
So, all-in-all, I've backed off to a stance of 'not sure'.
Kapyong