Ancient Cosmology: Many Heavens, Gods and the One [God]

[neilgodfrey]

The Testament of Levi describes seven heavens, but Morray-Jones and DeConick cite other studies that indicate the original Testament knew only three. The second heaven contains snow and fire and ice.

Hear, then, concerning the seven heavens. The lowest is for this cause more gloomy, in that it is near all the iniquities of men. The second hath fire, snow, ice, ready for the day of the ordinance of the Lord, in the righteous judgment of God: in it are all the spirits of the retributions for vengeance on the wicked. In the third are the hosts of the armies which are ordained for the day of judgment, to work vengeance on the spirits of deceit and of Beliar. And the heavens up to the fourth above these are holy, for in the highest of all dwelleth the Great Glory, in the holy of holies, far above all holiness. In the heaven next to it are the angels of the presence of the Lord, who minister and make propitiation to the Lord for all the ignorances of the righteous; and they offer to the Lord a reasonable sweet-smelling savour, and a bloodless offering. And in the heaven below this are the angels who bear the answers to the angels of the presence of the Lord. And in the heaven next to this are thrones, dominions, in which hymns are ever offered to God.

And in Isis and Osiris (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... is*/D.html ) Plutarch informs his readers:

for that part of the world which undergoes reproduction and destruction is contained underneath the orb of the moon, and all things in it are subjected to motion and to change through the four elements: fire, earth, water, and air.

[Kapyong]

Gday Neil,

And in Isis and Osiris (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... is*/D.html ) Plutarch informs his readers:

for that part of the world which undergoes reproduction and destruction is contained underneath the orb of the moon, and all things in it are subjected to motion and to change through the four elements: fire, earth, water, and air.

It's only a small step from there to 'fleshly'.
Reproduction, Destruction, the four elements - all points to earthly, hence 'fleshly'


Kapyong

[Stephan Huller]

Yes it was Bousset who developed the theory about the originality of the three heavens. I posted the relevant passages (in German) from his works in the other thread.

[Leucius Charinus]

I discuss a little about ancient cosmology in my fourth page of my review of Doherty's "Jesus: Neither God Nor Man".
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseid ... view4.html

I think it might be productive to break things into 2 sections:
1. Beliefs about what was above the firmament
2. Beliefs about what was below the firmament

Thanks GakuseiDon.

The firmament is the big blue dome that we can see when we look up on a sunny day.

Upon what are you basing this claim?

Another option is to treat the firmament as the background of fixed stars across which the planets and moon moved.

The night sky and its zodiac of fixed stars.

Isn't this made rather explicit somewhere or other?

[GakuseiDon]

The issue is **flesh** in the air, men in the air. From everything I've read, things containing earth -- including flesh -- naturally sank to the earth. Now, maybe Paul had the belief about flesh being in the air, but I don't think it can be inferred from Paul or from the texts of that time. That's what I'd like to see evidence for. Here I regard the Vision of Isaiah as an important document, since it clearly shows the form of creatures in each layer from earth to heaven. The only layer that appears to support the form of a man is on earth.

Indeed, GakuseiDon, there is no specific text that claims flesh for the Air Beneath the Moon, but many claim corruption, change, birth etc. for that region, I don't think it's a leap for Paul to have seen all Beneath the Moon as 'fleshly'.

I think it is a leap, if you are referring to daemons and souls in the air. Looking at the literature, they are described as made up of air and/or fire, which is why they float. As soon as they start to take on 'fleshly' attributes, they sink back down to the ground.

All it takes is for this schizotypal person to have imagined it - Paul had plenty of imagination and it fits right in with the concepts of the time, just expanded a little.

If you want to propose that Paul had a view that is not apparent in the literature of the time, then that's fine. But if you want to propose that Paul had a view that can be found in the literature, then I would like to see the literature.

[GakuseiDon]

The firmament is the big blue dome that we can see when we look up on a sunny day.

Upon what are you basing this claim?

Another option is to treat the firmament as the background of fixed stars across which the planets and moon moved.

That's the same option.

[neilgodfrey]

Casuistry rules for some when it comes to addressing this topic. And now it appears we must introduce the theories of gravity and mass into it all.

Physical stuff clearly was found in the heaven/s above the earth though we know it was the "natural abode" of earthly animals. We have quoted the direct evidence for this posts above. But for beings passing through the heavens it was quite conceivable for fleshly matter to accumulate (the added mass does not cause the fall to earth but is a consequence of actions and intent by one who is already heading towards earth!) as we see in Tertullian's explanation (On the Flesh of Christ) for the Apellean belief in how Jesus acquired his flesh though not born of a woman:

They allow that Christ really had a body. Whence was the material of it, if not from the same sort of thing as that in which He appeared? Whence came His body, if His body were not flesh? Whence came His flesh, if it were not born? Inasmuch as that which is born must undergo this nativity in order to become flesh. He borrowed, they say, His flesh from the stars, and from the substances of the higher world. And they assert it for a certain principle, that a body without nativity is nothing to be astonished at, because it has been submitted to angels to appear even among ourselves in the flesh without the intervention of the womb

And in Clement's Panarion

He did get real flesh, but in the following way. On his way from heaven he came to earth, says Apelles, and assembled his own body from the four elements (Panarion, 44,2,3)

[Kapyong]

Gday Neil,

Tertullian's explanation (On the Flesh of Christ) for the Apellean belief in how Jesus acquired his flesh though not born of a woman:

They allow that Christ really had a body. Whence was the material of it, if not from the same sort of thing as that in which He appeared? Whence came His body, if His body were not flesh? Whence came His flesh, if it were not born? Inasmuch as that which is born must undergo this nativity in order to become flesh.
He borrowed, they say, His flesh from the stars, and from the substances of the higher world.
And they assert it for a certain principle, that a body without nativity is nothing to be astonished at, because it has been submitted to angels to appear even among ourselves in the flesh without the intervention of the womb

Wow - what a find that passage is !
To have 'Borrowed his flesh from the stars' is rather evocative of a being crucified in the firmament, the Carrier/Doherty Thesis.

Kapyong

[Leucius Charinus]

Responding sequentially ....

There was also the question for some about what things were made of. There were the four elements: earth, water, air and fire. (Some proposed that there was a fifth element, called 'aether'. This existed above the firmament and filled the heavens.)

Good point to include the quintessential cosmic element GDon. This ancient concept was still entertained in the 20th century before the rise of Special Relativity and can now be located in the 21st century science journals as "dark matter" or "quantum foam" or the extended "Zero Point Field" etc. Industrialisation seems to have subsumed earth, water and air into solid, liquid and gas, with the cosmic (as opposed to terrestrial) fire as "plasma" (the substance of stars and suns". With this in mind the aether was a 5th state of matter, an exceedingly subtle material substance which saturated the universe (ie the entire heavens and beyond) and out of which all the other elements (states of matter) are generated.

There have been a number of references to two types of air beneath the moon - perhaps of these is the cosmic atmosphere of aether.

[GakuseiDon]

There have been a number of references to two types of air beneath the moon - perhaps of these is the cosmic atmosphere of aether.

I'm not sure that anyone in ancient times thought of the aether as being something that existed beneath the Moon. At least, I can't recall that being proposed anywhere.