Ancient Cosmology: Many Heavens, Gods and the One [God]

[Leucius Charinus]

Thanks neil godfrey and DCH.

What text is this?

(PHI Abr 1:205) ὅνπερ τρόπον καὶ τὸ φῶς
(PHE ABR 1:205) in the same manner also the light
DCH

It is Philo (PHI = Greek text, and PHE = English Translation of Greek) as found in BibleWorks. The Greek is apparently based on the text in the Cohn–Wendland edition of Philo manuscripts (5 volumes, 1896-1906) with some tweaking by Bibleworks staff. The English translation is from The Works of Philo Judaeus, the Contemporary of Josephus, Translated from the Greek, C. D. Yonge, 4 vols., London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854-55

DCH

Another earlier entry worthy of consideration ---

(PHI Abr 1:205) ὅνπερ τρόπον καὶ τὸ φῶς
(PHE ABR 1:205) in the same manner also the light

ἐν οὐρανῷ μὲν ἄκρατον καὶ ἀμιγὲς σκότους ἐστίν,
on one hand in heaven it is unmixed and pure,

ἐν δὲ τοῖς ὑπὸ σελήνην ἀέρι ζοφερῷ κεκραμένον φαίνεται.
on the other hand, under (the) moon the air is mingled with gloom.

(PHI Opi 1:84) παρ᾽ ἣν αἰτίαν καὶ γεννήσας αὐτόν ὁ πατὴρ ἡγεμονικὸν φύσει ζῷον
(PHE Opi 1:84) For which reason the Father who made him to be dominant by nature over living things

οὐκ ἔργῳ μόνον
not by work alone,

ἀλλὰ καὶ τῇ διὰ λόγου χειροτονίᾳ
but also by express verbal appointment,

καθίστη τῶν ὑπὸ σελήνην ἁπάντων βασιλέα
established him as king of all that is under (the) moon,

χερσαίων καὶ ἐνύδρων καὶ ἀεροπόρων·
(whether on) dry land, or (in) water, or crossing (the) air.

ὅσα γὰρ θνητὰ ἐν τοῖς τρισὶ στοιχείοις
For as mortal things which live in the three elements,

γῇ ὕδατι ἀέρι
land, water (or) air,

πάντα ὑπέταττεν αὐτῷ,
he put all in subjection to him,

τὰ κατ᾽ οὐρανὸν ὑπεξελόμενος
excepting the beings that are in heaven,

ἅτε θειοτέρας μοίρας ἐπιλαχόντα.
as they are part of a divine lot.

(PHI Mos 2:64) μετὰ δὲ τὴν κάθαρσιν τῶν ὑπὸ σελήνην,
(PHE Mos 2:64) But after the purification of the things under (the) moon,

ἀπολουσαμένης τῆς γῆς καὶ νέας ἀναφανείσης καὶ τοιαύτης,
the earth being thus washed and appearing new again,

οἵαν εἰκὸς εἶναι ὅτε τὴν ἀρχὴν μετὰ τοῦ κόσμου παντὸς ἐκτίζετο,
just as it appeared in the beginning when all the kosmos was created,

πρόεισιν ἐκ τοῦ ξυλίνου κατασκευάσματος
He (Noah) came forth out of his wooden edifice,

αὐτὸς καὶ γυνὴ
and his wife,

καὶ υἱοὶ καὶ τούτων γυναῖκες
and his sons and their wives,

Hi ho!

DCH

Thanks. I get it now. YES it should be on the lists of contributory literary sources, mainly to-date furnished by Kapyong


Be well,


LC

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Thanks. I get it now. YES it should be on the lists of contributory literary sources, mainly to-date furnished by Kapyong
Be well,
LC

Indeed, those passages from Philo deserve to be included in my sources. Here they are in just English :

(205) And let no one fancy that that unmixed joy, which is without any alloy of sorrow, descends from heaven to the earth, but rather, that it is a combination of the two, that which is the better being predominant in the mixture; in the same manner as the light in heaven is unalloyed and free from any admixture of darkness, but in the sublunary atmosphere it is mingled with dark air.

(84) For which reason the Father who made him [man] to be a being dominant over them by nature not merely in fact, but also by express verbal appointment, established him as the king of all the animals, beneath the moon, whether terrestrial or aquatic, or such as traverse the air. For every mortal thing which lives in the three elements, land, water or air, did he put in subjection to him, excepting only the beings that are in heaven, as creatures who have a more divine portion.

(64) But after the purification, in this way, of all the things beneath the moon, the earth being thus washed and appearing new again, and such as it appeared to be when it was at first created, along with the entire universe, Noah came forth out of his wooden edifice, himself and his wife, and his sons and their wives, and with his family there came forth likewise, in one company, all the races of animals which had gone in with them, in order to the generation and propagation of similar creatures in future.

The Moon here is clearly the dividing line between what is above and what is below, between light and dark, between permanence and mutability, between heavenly and earthly.

Kapyong

[DCHindley]

One thing that has always annoyed me about Philo scholarship is the propensity to use Latin for the names of the various books.

The book names translate thus:

Opi	On the Creation (De opificio mundi)
Leg	Allegorical Interpretation (Legum allegoriae I, II & III)
Che	On Cherubim (De Cherubim)
Sac	On the Sacrifices of Abel and Cain (De sacrificiis Abelis et Caini)
Pot	The Worse attacks the Better (Quod deterius Potiori insidiari soleat)
Pos	On the Posterity and Exile of Cain (De posteritate Caini)
Gig	On the Giants (De gigantibus)
Imm	On the Unchangeableness of God (Quod Deus sit immutabilis)
Agr	On Husbandry (De agricultura)
Pla	On Noah’s Work as a Planter (De plantatione)
Ebr	On Drunkenness (De ebrietate)
Sob	On Sobriety (De Sobrietate)
Lin	On the Confusion of Tongues (De confusione linguarum)
Mig	On the Migration of Abraham (De migratione Abrahami)
Her	Who is Heir of Divine Things (Quis rerum divinarum heres sit)
Cng	On the Preliminary Studies (De congressu eruditionis gratia)
Fug	On Flight and Finding (De fuga et inventione)
Mut	On the Change of Names (De mutatione nominum)
Som	On Dreams (De somniis I & II)
Abr	On Abraham (De Abrahamo)
Ios	On Joseph (De Iosepho)
Mos	On Moses (De vita Moysis I & II)
Dec	Decalogue (De Decalogo)
Spe	On the Special Laws (De specialibus legibus I-IV)
Vir	On the Virtues (De virtutibus)
Pep	On Rewards and Punishments (De praemiis et poenis, De exsecrationibus)
Prb	Every Good Man is Free (Quod omnis probus liber sit)
Cnt	On the Contemplative Life (De vita contemplativa)
Aet	On the Eternity of the World (De aeternitate mundi)
Fla	Flaccus (In Flaccum)
Gai	Embassy to Gaius (Legatio ad Gaium)
Hyp	Hypothetica (Apologia pro Iudaeis)
Prv	On Providence (De Providentia I & II)
Qge	Questions and Answers on Genesis - Petit (Quastiones et solutiones in Genesim I-IV)
Qgi	Questions and Answers on Genesis - Paramelle (Quaestiones et solutiones in Genesim)
Qgp	Questions and Answers on Genesis - Unidentified Fragments, Petit (Quaestiones et solutiones in Genesim incertae sedis fragmenta)
Qex	Questions and Answers on Exodus (Quaestiones et solutiones in Exodum I-II)
Qei	Questions and Answers on Exodus - Unidentified Fragments, Petit (Quaestiones et solutiones in Exodum incertae sedis fragmenta)

Oh look! Saturday Night Live is on ... gotta go

DCH

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

I've done a thorough search for references to Below the Moon etc. and have found a few more quotes that are relevant :

Moses is right also when he says, that "darkness was over the face of the abyss." For the air is in a manner spread above the empty space, since having mounted up it entirely fills all that open, and desolate, and empty place, which reaches down to us from the regions below the moon.

...God causes the violent storms of wind and rain which we see, not for the injury of those who traverse the sea, as you fancied, or of those who till the earth, but for the general benefit of the whole of the human race, for with his water he cleanses the earth, and with his breezes he purifies all the regions beneath the moon, and by the united influence of both he nourishes and promotes the growth and brings to perfection both animals and plants.

for as for the customs of the Egyptians, it is not creditable even to mention them, for they have introduced irrational beasts, and those not merely such as are domestic and tame, but even the most ferocious of wild beasts to share the honours of the gods, taking some out of each of the elements beneath the moon, as the lion from among the animals which live on the earth, the crocodile from among those which live in the water, the kite from such as traverse the air, and the Egyptian iris.

...Perhaps therefore he designs and intimates by the descent of the birds on the cut pieces an invasion of enemies; for all the nature of the world beneath the moon is full of battles and ill will, both domestic and external;

...But if we regard the inward meaning of the words, all things which are done beneath the moon are here compared to a smoking furnace, on account of the vapour which rises up out of the earth and water.

...But Moses was well aware that the world was created, and was like a very large city, having rulers and subjects in it; the rulers being all the bodies which are in heaven, such as planets and fixed stars; (14) and the subjects being all the natures beneath the moon, hovering in the air and adjacent to the earth.

So Xenocrates calls Jove, in respect of immutable things, HIGHEST, in respect of sublunary things LOWEST.

Aristotle, that the part of the world which is sublunary is subject to change, and there terrestrial beings find a decay.

... I must now convert my pen to discourse in this third book of Meteors, which are beings above the earth and below the moon, and are extended to the site and situation of the earth, which is supposed to be the centre of the sphere of this world; and from thence will I take my beginning.

There are a few more from later periods as well.

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Here's a little beauty :

Has that most remote sphere of the fixed stars any density in an upward direction? or is it merely a superficies devoid of all depth, something like a plane figure?

Here is Philo calling the sphere of stars (i.e. the firmament) the most remote sphere of all.
And, he is wondering if it is 2-dimensional!

Kapyong

[DCHindley]

Group K1: 1-5 heavens - non Ptolemaic Model
1 Enoch - one heaven

Going through R H Charles' translation of Ethiopic Enoch I find "heaven" and "heavens" (pl) used almost interchangeably. The plural is more common in the Parables (section II) but is it common in the latter chapters as well. Plural "heavens" suggests more than one.

Of course, the Ethiopic is a couple languages removed from the original Aramaic of most of the book (excepting the section called the Parables). Who knows where the Parables originated (Christian, Judeans), or what language they were written in.

DCH (psyching myself to go grocery shopping at the Wal-Mart super center with the better half) ... at least they have a good bakery ...

[GakuseiDon]

Well, I'm not sure the dust has settled on that yet. On the one hand, GakuseiDon has shown that 'in your form' was probably present in the original, but the text is so mangled, it's hard to be sure of anything.

So, all-in-all, I've backed off to a stance of 'not sure'.

Hi Kapyong, I've just posted an analysis on how Carrier seems to have missed "in your form" in 9.13 (probably mislead by Doherty doing the same thing in J:NGNM), and its implications on the "Did Jesus die in Outer Space" thread (link below). If there is anything you are not sure about, please let me know. I'm happy to answer any questions on that thread. IMO the case is pretty clear, though.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1018&start=70

[Leucius Charinus]

Group K1: 1-5 heavens - non Ptolemaic Model
1 Enoch - one heaven

Going through R H Charles' translation of Ethiopic Enoch I find "heaven" and "heavens" (pl) used almost interchangeably. The plural is more common in the Parables (section II) but is it common in the latter chapters as well. Plural "heavens" suggests more than one.

Thanks DCH,

I have revised the literary sources accordingly by moving 1 Enoch from Group K1 (1-5 heavens) to Group K3 (undetermined number or > 8)

• Group K1: [3/14, 22 %] 1-5 heavens - non Ptolemaic Model
  
  Clementine Recognitions - two heavens
  Testament of Solomon - three heavens
  3 Baruch - five heavens
  
  
  Group K2: [7/14, 50 %] 7 or 8 heavens - Ptolemaic Model
  
  2 Enoch - seven heavens - fourth is sun and moon
  Life of Adam and Eve - seven heavens, 3rd is burial of Adam
  Testament of the 12 Patriarchs - seven heavens
  Vision of Isaiah - seven heavens
  The Mysteries of John the Apostle - seven heavens
  Hypostatis of the Archons - eight heavens
  On the Origin of the World - eight heavens
  
  Group K3: [4/14, 28 %] More than 8 heavens or an undetermined number
  
  1 Enoch - multiple (unknown number of) heavens
  Coptic Apocalypse of Paul - ten heavens
  "Pistis Sofia" ('The Books of the Saviour') - Unspecified number of heavens ????
  {{{WHICH TEXT ??}}} - 365 heavens

Do we have an actual text which mentions 365 heavens?
It looks to be sourced from Ireaeus Haer 1.24.3 and repeated by Augustine.

For example: http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/gar40.htm

• Augustine: "Basilides asserted the number of heavens to be 365, the number of the days in the year. For this reason he used to glorify a Holy Name, as it were, that is the word Abraxas, the letters in which, taken according to the Greek method of computation, make up this number."

A Companion to Second-Century Christian 'Heretics' which reduced to Ireaeus Haer 1.24.3
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nqr ... NS&f=false

But are there any source texts?

IDK.

... at least they have a good bakery ...

The bread (and coffee?) of life

Be well,


LC

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Do we have an actual text which mentions 365 heavens?

I can't find any Gnostic source for this, but I do note several fathers commenting on the beliefs of the Basilideans - with Irenaeus as you mentioned being first, then followed by Hippolytus, pseudo-Tertullian, Zephyrinus, and Epiphanius.

I also note that 3 Baruch (3rd C. ?) has 365 gates of heaven, possibly influenced by gnostic ideas.


Kapyong

[Leucius Charinus]

Adding the First Apocalypse of James with 72 heavens ....

• Group K1: [3/14, 22 %] 1-5 heavens - non Ptolemaic Model
  
  Clementine Recognitions - two heavens
  Testament of Solomon - three heavens
  3 Baruch - five heavens
  
  
  Group K2: [7/14, 50 %] 7 or 8 heavens - Ptolemaic Model
  
  2 Enoch - seven heavens - fourth is sun and moon
  Life of Adam and Eve - seven heavens, 3rd is burial of Adam
  Testament of the 12 Patriarchs - seven heavens
  Vision of Isaiah - seven heavens
  The Mysteries of John the Apostle - seven heavens
  Hypostatis of the Archons - eight heavens
  On the Origin of the World - eight heavens
  
  Group K3: [4/14, 28 %] More than 8 heavens or an undetermined number
  
  1 Enoch - multiple (unknown number of) heavens
  "Pistis Sofia" ('The Books of the Saviour') - Unspecified number of heavens ????
  Coptic Apocalypse of Paul - ten heavens
  First Apocalypse of James - 72 heavens <<<====== new addition
  Basilides - 365 heavens (according to Irenaeus, Hippolytus, pseudo-Tertullian, Zephyrinus, and Epiphanius.)

LC