Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

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John2
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by John2 »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:54 pm
John2 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:33 pm
davidmartin wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:10 pm Check this out ML
https://academic.oup.com/jts/article-ab ... edFrom=PDF

If they're right we have a window into a lost non-canonical gospel used by the earlier church fathers
The question then becomes - does this draw on Thomas sayings or are they all outside Thomas?
(did the canonical gospels use this source for the non-Thomas sayings)

I see the source used in the Clementines as being one of the translations that were made of the original Hebrew Matthew (not to argue about that, just to offer my point of view), in this case one that was used by Ebionites who opposed Paul. In this scenario, the Hebrew Matthew would pre-date that source and be in line with the Nazarenes (who are said to have used it and accepted Paul).

John, your argument would in essence imply that Clementine draws entirely from the canonicals then?

No, I'm suggesting that the Clementines used a non-canonical gospel created from one of the translations that were made of the original Hebrew Matthew, similar to the way that the canonical Matthew and Luke (in my view) had "mutilated" Mark and created new works of their own. And I think this is why it was described as being a "mutilated" version of Matthew.
davidmartin
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by davidmartin »

The Clementines source could well be that John2 there was supposed to be a 'Hebrew' gospel or gospels

What are these 60 sayings in the Clementines - has anyone pulled them out into one place so we can see if they have any Thomas like connections?
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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:12 pm The Clementines source could well be that John2 there was supposed to be a 'Hebrew' gospel or gospels

What are these 60 sayings in the Clementines - has anyone pulled them out into one place so we can see if they have any Thomas like connections?
Credits to DeConick, she has them in her otherwise worthless Thomas Commentary - but these make up for that for sure!

I have a first one and it's a strike: the word war is decisive here

Pseudo-Clementine Homilies 11.19
'Whence the Prophet of Truth, knowing that the world was in much error, and seeing it ranged on the side of evil, did not choose that there should be peace to it while it stood in error. So that till the end he sets himself against all those who are in concord with wickedness, setting truth over against error, sending as it were fire upon those who are sober, namely wrath against the seducer, which is likened to a sword, and by holding forth the word he destroys ignorance by knowledge, cutting, as it were, separating the living from the dead. Therefore, while wickedness is being conquered by lawful knowledge, war has taken hold of all.'

Thomas logion 16

16. say(s) IS : Perhaps they think viz. the(PL) human : have I come to cast of a(n) Peace upon the World and they know not : have I come to cast of some(PL) division upon the earth a(n) fire a(n) sword a(n) War there-be five Indeed will come-to-be in a(n) house there-be three will come-to-be upon two and two upon three the father upon the child and the child upon the father and they will stay to foot they in-case they make-be the(PL) Solitary

Got to run, busy days ahead and just finished a few of those, publishing the trilogy of logion 63, 64 and 65
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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

John2 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:40 pm
No, I'm suggesting that the Clementines used a non-canonical gospel created from one of the translations that were made of the original Hebrew Matthew, similar to the way that the canonical Matthew and Luke (in my view) had "mutilated" Mark and created new works of their own. And I think this is why it was described as being a "mutilated" version of Matthew.
Well, it seems that such can't be the case, with only this first example of the word war not being in any canonical source - in all likelihood the source to Pseudo Clementine is Thomas, and only Thomas
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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

Of course, direction of dependence needs to be unequivocally established, but it will in due time. There's another fun one for logion 17, and there are other Pseudos there

Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions 1.44
'For as no one can see without eyes, nor hear without ears, nor smell without nostrils, nor taste without tongue, nor handle anything without hands, so it is impossible, without the True Prophet, to know what is pleasing to God.'

Pseudo-Philo, Liber antiquitatum biblicarum 26, 13
'And then I will take those and many others better than they are from where eye has not seen nor ear heard and it has not entered into the heart of man, until the like should come to pass in the world.'

Pseudo-Titus Epistle
'Great and honourable is the divine promise which the Lord has made with his own mouth to them that are holy and pure. He will bestow upon them what eyes have not seen nor ears heard, nor has it entered the human heart. And from eternity to eternity there will be a race incomparable and incomprehensible.'

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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

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Pseudo-Clementine Homilies 8.22
'However, the King of the impious, striving to bring over to his own counsel the King of the pious, and not being able, ceased his efforts, undertaking to persecute him [Jesus] for
the remainder of his life. But you, being ignorant of the foreordained law, are under his power through evil deeds. Wherefore you are polluted in body and soul, and in the
present life you are tyrannized over by sufferings and demons, but in that which is to come you shall have your souls to be punished. And this not you alone suffer through
ignorance, but also some of our nation, who by evil deeds having been brought under the power of the Prince of Wickedness, like persons invited to a supper by a father celebrating the marriage of his son, have not obeyed. But instead of those who through preoccupation disobeyed, the Father celebrating the marriage of his Son, has ordered us,
through the Prophet of Truth, to come into the partings of the ways, that is, to you, and to invest you with the clean wedding-garment, which is baptism, which is for the remis-
sion of the sins done by you, and to bring the good to the supper of God by repentance, although at first they were left out of the banquet.'

Pseudo-Clementine Homilies 15.3
'What is it then that prevents you from coming to our faith? Tell me, that we may begin our discussion with it. For many are the hindrances. The faithful are hindered by occupa-
tion with merchandise, or public business, or the cultivation of the soil, or cares, and such like
. The unbelievers, of whom you also are one, are hindered by ideas such as that the gods, which do not exist, really exist, or that all things are subject to genesis or self-action, or that souls are mortal, or that our doctrines are false because there is no providence.'

Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions 4.35
'Meantime he has commanded us to go forth to preach, and to invite you to the supper of the heavenly King, which the Father has prepared for the marriage of his son, and that
we should give you wedding garments, that is the grace of baptism. Which whosoever obtains, as a spotless robe with which he is to enter to the supper of the King, ought to
beware that it be not in any part of it stained with sin, and so he be rejected as unworthy and reprobrate'

The four excuses in Thomas are named: coppers to some Travellers, buying a "house", making dinner for a friend, and buying a Village (likely translated as farm by Pseudo Clemens)
This is my interpretation of Thomas 64: https://www.academia.edu/44902109/The_P ... _strangers
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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

That sums it up really, I quickly scanned all of DeConick.

Gathercole has over 100 mentions of Clemens, hers the first one I ran into

69.1 Although ‘persecution in the heart’ might appear obscure,3 the interpretation is greatly helped by a parallel in Clement:
There is a persecution which arises from without (ἔξωθεν), from people assailing the faithful, either out of hatred, or envy, or avarice, or through diabolic agency. But the most painful persecution is internal (ἔνδοθεν), which proceeds from each person’s own soul being vexed by impious lusts, diverse pleasures, and base hopes, and destructive dreams … More grievous and painful is this persecution, which arises from within, which is ever with a person, and which the persecuted cannot escape, for he carries the enemy about everywhere in himself.

Looks like a jackpot to me. I'll continue over the weekend perhaps, and get out the laptop. Tedious to do this on mobile
davidmartin
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by davidmartin »

good old DeConick
It appears like the Clement is attempting to 'explain' the meaning of certain parables (potentially drawn from Thomas)
'explain' as in putting the authors own spin on the meaning. would be good to find a meaning obviously awkward that doesn't really fit the parable which would suggest these guy were lifting it out something like Thomas. I thought that's what they were up to when i first saw the Clementine stuff, i was expecting to find some stuff about Jesus in there. Not a sausage. Plenty of gloomy and wacky theology though that i get the feeling is Samaritan, who else would claim the Hebrew scriptures were sometimes inaccurate and falsified by the scribes?
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mlinssen
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Re: Almost 60 Percent of Markan Jesus Sayings Appear in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:37 am good old DeConick
It appears like the Clement is attempting to 'explain' the meaning of certain parables (potentially drawn from Thomas)
'explain' as in putting the authors own spin on the meaning. would be good to find a meaning obviously awkward that doesn't really fit the parable which would suggest these guy were lifting it out something like Thomas. I thought that's what they were up to when i first saw the Clementine stuff, i was expecting to find some stuff about Jesus in there. Not a sausage. Plenty of gloomy and wacky theology though that i get the feeling is Samaritan, who else would claim the Hebrew scriptures were sometimes inaccurate and falsified by the scribes?
That's how everyone "explains" everything really, can't blame any of them as it's all die the greater good of course (cough).
Seriously now, P&R these days do exactly the same, and don't start on presidents and their spokesmen

Regarding Pseudo-Clemens the focus would be in what he quotes that is not in the canonicals, like the word 'war'.
No use going by the interpretation, that's a wild goose chase. I had to laugh at John2's suggestion: and I thought I had a creative mind!
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