Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8566
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:51 pm

Aleph One wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:29 pm
Can anyone say whether the Greek of the 2nd line from Chapter 47 implies the start of the existence of the gospel, or just the start of Paul's preaching of it to them, perhaps? I think this is it:
τι πρωτον υμιν εν αρχη του ευαγγελιου εγραψεν
It literally says, "what he first wrote to you in the beginning of the gospel." Its exact meaning is controversial.

User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 592
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by mlinssen » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:11 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:51 pm
Aleph One wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:29 pm
Can anyone say whether the Greek of the 2nd line from Chapter 47 implies the start of the existence of the gospel, or just the start of Paul's preaching of it to them, perhaps? I think this is it:
τι πρωτον υμιν εν αρχη του ευαγγελιου εγραψεν
It literally says, "what he first wrote to you in the beginning of the gospel." Its exact meaning is controversial.
Ben, isn't https://archive.org/stream/BaillyDictio ... 2/mode/1up saying that this is a substantive?

I'm wondering about the -ον of πρωτον. Then again I just woke up

And a wondrous sentence indeed...

Aleph One
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:13 am

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by Aleph One » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:59 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:51 pm
It literally says, "what he first wrote to you in the beginning of the gospel." Its exact meaning is controversial.
Hmmm quite interesting (thank you). I can see why.
hakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:35 pm
1st Clement is a very late writing ---later than Acts of the Apostles and even later than Irenaeus' "Against Heresies".

The martyrdom of Peter and Paul is found in 1st Clement but unknown in Acts of the Apostles and Irenaeus' "Against Heresies".
Neither here nor there, but this has piqued my interest as well.

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8566
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:49 am

mlinssen wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:11 am
Ben, isn't https://archive.org/stream/BaillyDictio ... 2/mode/1up saying that this is a substantive?
No. This is an adjective which is often used adverbially, as well.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3715
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:48 pm

Aleph One wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:29 pm
Can anyone say whether the Greek of the 2nd line from Chapter 47 implies the start of the existence of the gospel, or just the start of Paul's preaching of it to them, perhaps? I think this is it:
τι πρωτον υμιν εν αρχη του ευαγγελιου εγραψεν
Ben wrote:
It literally says, "what he first wrote to you in the beginning of the gospel." Its exact meaning is controversial.
I think "Clement" was meaning by "in the beginning of the gospel": when he first preached to you (that would be in 50-52 for 2.5 years) because that time of preaching is connected with Apollos and Peter getting followers from Paul's converts soon after.
That cannot be the start of the existence of the gospel (in Corinth) because in 1 Thessalonians (1:7-8, 2:2, 3:1) and Acts (16:12-17:16), Paul already had preached his gospel in Philippi & Thessalonica before reaching Athens.

Cordially, Bernard

hakeem
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by hakeem » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:12 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:48 pm
Aleph One wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:29 pm
Can anyone say whether the Greek of the 2nd line from Chapter 47 implies the start of the existence of the gospel, or just the start of Paul's preaching of it to them, perhaps? I think this is it:
τι πρωτον υμιν εν αρχη του ευαγγελιου εγραψεν
Ben wrote:
It literally says, "what he first wrote to you in the beginning of the gospel." Its exact meaning is controversial.
I think "Clement" was meaning by "in the beginning of the gospel": when he first preached to you (that would be in 50-52 for 2.5 years) because that time of preaching is connected with Apollos and Peter getting followers from Paul's converts soon after.
That cannot be the start of the existence of the gospel (in Corinth) because in 1 Thessalonians (1:7-8, 2:2, 3:1) and Acts (16:12-17:16), Paul already had preached his gospel in Philippi & Thessalonica before reaching Athens.

Cordially, Bernard
You have a problem. There is no evidence that the supposed Clement knew of any letter to the Thessalonians. In addition the letter to the Thessalonians does not state the author preached a gospel c50-52 CE.
And may I remind you that Acts of the apostles does not state Saul or Paul wrote letters to anyone.

hakeem
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Convince me that 1 Clement knew a Gospel

Post by hakeem » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:35 pm

In order to determine what the supposed Clement knew about the Gospels one must first do some research on the character himself.
When did he live? When was he bishop of Rome?

A detailed search for Clement in Christian writings will show that he did not live at all so could not have been bishop of anywhere and wrote a letter to any Church.

The pattern is always consistent. Writings which appear to historicise Paul and his letters are always either forgeries, false attribution or fiction.

Post Reply