On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

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neilgodfrey
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

Bernard Muller wrote:That sounds very much like Doherty's and Carrier's part of their method.
I've been trying to figure out how you interpreted what I said this way and it suddenly hit me.

I said it is not valid to say "If someone wrote about X (e.g. destruction of Jerusalem) and not about something else then we know he wrote in or around the year Y."

What is valid is to propose an idea as an explanation for X and then to say that if that explanation is true then we would expect to find ABC in the documentation. That is a prediction based on the idea we have. If that prediction is found to be true then we have some confirmation for our idea.

What Doherty and Carrier do is propose hypotheses and then make predictions on those hypotheses to test them.

What you are doing with dating the gospels is not a prediction at all. It is simply an assertion with no means of verification.

But you could turn your approach into a prediction.

You could say: If Mark were written around 70 and was interested in the fall of Jerusalem we would expect to find such and such a description of the fall of Jerusalem. Do we find that? Yes -- bullseye- confirmation!

But the trouble is that someone else can say: If Mark were written in the second century and was interested in the fall of Jerusalem we would expect to find such and such a description of the fall of Jerusalem. Do we find that? Yes -- bullseye -- confirmation!

So some predictions are useless and can be used to "confirm" competing hypotheses.
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theomise
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Re: Reasons AGAINST a late Gospel dating

Post by theomise »

Hey Kapy!
Kapyong wrote:I think you'd be OK with a few levels. Never hit a limit.
Believe me, the allowance for nesting here is not infinite...

In any case, my compilation of your rejoinders:
Kapyong wrote:Gday theomise,

1) Oh it's not that bad surely - the academy has evidence for it's view so I felt it had to be there.
2) IIUC Temple destruction plus end of the world soon to come means low 70s.
3) The evidence was there in the Greek, further back on the thread. It's found on Bernard's site - search for "Chapter 15" http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html
4) The interconnected web of dependencies seems to work best for 1st C. Gospels. Although I will explore other theories too maybe.
5) The Didache knows the Lord's Prayer from a 'gospel'.
6) What is that evidence please ?
7) Everything has to happen in a very short space of time - the 130-150s - Papias, Aristides, 1 Clement, Apoc.Peter, Ignatius, the Marcionites etc. Not much time for documents to spread.
8) You're right that it doesn't mean a first century gospel - I'll take that one out.
9) The argument is that no critic crowed that the Gospel was RECENT, when they could have if it was that late.
10) It was an argument of Bernard IIRC, I'll try and track down the full context...."And gMatthew was written when Pharisees were turning into rabbis and well esteemed by Jews, allowing them to reform Judaism and end the time of distress which originated with the fall of Jerusalem. That happened way before the 140's, before 93-94 according to Josephus' Antiquities."
And my responses:
1) The "academy" is brilliant when the goal is the (secular/scientific) pursuit of truth. Not so much when confessional interests are calling the shots.
2) We should not confuse "here's a guess that could work" with "this must be the case".
3) Except, that's all nonsense.
4) Yeah, nothing implies 1st century.
5) [[Just to clarify, are you referring to Didache 15:5?]]
6) [[Good question - this would require a separate lengthy post]]
7) No, not really.
8) Yaay... I made a point, cheers! :thumbup:
9) And which such "critics" of the 1st and 2nd centuries produced writings that have even SURVIVED?
10) Weak sauce.
theomise
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by theomise »

neilgodfrey wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:That sounds very much like Doherty's and Carrier's part of their method.
I've been trying to figure out how you interpreted what I said this way and it suddenly hit me.

I said it is not valid to say "If someone wrote about X (e.g. destruction of Jerusalem) and not about something else then we know he wrote in or around the year Y."

What is valid is to propose an idea as an explanation for X and then to say that if that explanation is true then we would expect to find ABC in the documentation. That is a prediction based on the idea we have. If that prediction is found to be true then we have some confirmation for our idea.

What Doherty and Carrier do is propose hypotheses and then make predictions on those hypotheses to test them.

What you are doing with dating the gospels is not a prediction at all. It is simply an assertion with no means of verification.

But you could turn your approach into a prediction.

You could say: If Mark were written around 70 and was interested in the fall of Jerusalem we would expect to find such and such a description of the fall of Jerusalem. Do we find that? Yes -- bullseye- confirmation!

But the trouble is that someone else can say: If Mark were written in the second century and was interested in the fall of Jerusalem we would expect to find such and such a description of the fall of Jerusalem. Do we find that? Yes -- bullseye -- confirmation!

So some predictions are useless and can be used to "confirm" competing hypotheses.
Hey Neil: A very insight-rich post... Good stuff. :thumbup: I do hope any aspiring disputants will take time to read it closely before bloviating randomly. :?
bcedaifu
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by bcedaifu »

Stephan Huller wrote: What about the evidence we just saw that Clement infers that Marcion became a Christian when Simon heard the preaching of Peter (i.e. in the first century) and was an old man along with the other heretics in the age of Hadrian? Doesn't this solidify a first century witness of Christianity?
Stephan Huller wrote: Couldn't Marcion have been born or claim to have been born in 30 CE became a Christian at 20 years of age (50 CE) and Simon's 'hearing the preaching of Peter' (remember Acts only mentions Philip's encounter with Simon) c. 55 - 60 CE? Is all of that impossible or unlikely? I don't mean this as a statement of historical fact but rather a tradition which was known (and believed) by Clement? I don't think so. This is one tradition. Tertullian's is another. The problem that people like Bernard make is that they can't seem to separate 'claims' from 'facts.' Perhaps he hangs around more virtuous people than I do but the idea that people like or exaggerate is IMO the rule in human nature - especially in an age where facts could not be easily verified.
The question isn't - do we know that Marcion lived to the age of 90 but, was he an old man in the age of Hadrian who claimed to have 'arisen' in the age of the apostles before Simon Magus? Why not?
What do Jesus, Clement and Eusebius have in common? All three names are found in the ancient texts, but refer to different people at different times. Maybe “Marcion” is another example. One name, different people.
Stephan Huller wrote: There are countless other witnesses to the same basic understanding that we saw in Clement - namely that the Marcionites understood Marcion to have been an apostle - and the head of the Church. In this list we would include Irenaeus, Adamantius, and Origen.
Origen? Where does Origen make this claim that Marcion identified himself as an apostle? This claim requires verification.

Origen:commentary on Matthew 15:3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
According to a remark by Origen (Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 15.3), Marcion "prohibited allegorical interpretations of the scripture".
Tertullian disputed this in his treatise against Marcion, as did Henry Wace:
Codex Sinaiticus Matthew 15:3--with Jesus complaining after the disciples ate without washing their hands wrote: ο δε αποκριθειϲ ειπεν αυτοιϲ (,) δια τι [kai] ϋμειϲ παραβενε τε την εντολην του θυ δια την παραδοϲιν ϋμων
moreover answering he said to them (,) because of why [also] you break the commandment of god on account of the tradition of you.
Commentary on Matthew 15:3 in Greek, attributed to Origen (not Hippolytus), (but from which source?)
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... entary.asp
books x.-xvii., covering the portion from Matt. xiii. 36 to xxii. 33, are extant in the Greek, and the greater part of the remaining books survives in a Latin version, which is co-extensive with the Greek from book xii. 9 to book xvii. 36, and contains further the exposition from Matt. xxii. 34 to xxvii. 66.
We need the precise reference from Origen, in Greek, and an elaboration of the history of this remark, attributed to Origen--> from which source did the Greek “original” arise? Does it manifest evidence of tampering? What is the copying history of this manuscript containing a reference to Marcion's interpretation of Matthew's anecdote about the importance of washing one's hands before eating (Matthew 15:2)?

Is that history something akin to the SINGLE copy of Justin Martyr's works, that we possess, today, which had been copied/created in 1364 CE, in an Italian monastery?
How does this commentary on Matthew 15:3 by Origen relate to Marcion? Does Origen specifically name Marcion? Does Origen contest Marcion's supposed claim to be an apostle of Jesus? Give us the link and the Greek text, so that we can verify this claim, above.
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Neil,
I said it is not valid to say "If someone wrote about X (e.g. destruction of Jerusalem) and not about something else then we know he wrote in or around the year Y."
He wrote about something else. That soon after the fall of Jerusalem, the advent of the kingdom with many concrete and visual events would happen. You call that metaphors about the destruction of the city. I do not see why.

Mark 13 NRSV 2 Then Jesus asked him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.
3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign that all these things are about to be accomplished?”


Mark 13 NRSV 14 “But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 15 the one on the housetop must not go down or enter the house to take anything away; 16 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 17 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not be in winter.

19 For in those days there will be suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, no, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut short those days.

21 And if anyone says to you at that time, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘Look! There he is!’—do not believe it. 22 False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be alert; I have already told you everything.

“But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 15 the one on the housetop must not go down or enter the house to take anything away; 16 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 17 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not be in winter.
“But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
25 and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory.


Of course that did not happen "in those days". So gMark had to be completed after the fall of Jerusalem, and only months after at the latest If it was later, that would not be "in those days".

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Neil,
What you are doing with dating the gospels is not a prediction at all. It is simply an assertion with no means of verification.
I verified the dating of gMark by external evidence provided by 1 Clement, Q, gLuke & gMatthew. For each of these texts, I also provided internal and external evidence for a dating of 80 to 95 CE.

Cordially, Bernard
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Stephan Huller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

The facts then that at least three sources intimate that the Marcionites put Marcion in a position of prominence in the first century helps explain the 'problem' noticed by proponents of a second century origin for Christianity. Why is it that the Catholic tradition seems to 'explode' in the middle to late second century? Why are there no reliable sources which seem to date back to the fifty year period (70 - 120 CE)? Indeed the specific Marcionite identification as 'the apostle' actually encroaches on the lack of information about the apostle called Paul by the Catholic tradition independent of Marcion. The two ideas go hand in hand, in fact. In other words, when Tertullian complains for a number of paragraphs at the beginning of Adv Marc 5 that - as a new member of Christianity he can find no information about 'the apostle' from Marcionite sources (and thus clearly reinforcing the authority of the Marcionites over 'the apostle' still) there is a clear blurred distinction between 'Marcion' on the one hand and 'Paul' on the other.

This may well explain why it was so important for Tertullian and company to establish Marcion as 'actually' being witnessed by prominent Catholics as late as the Antonine period. Tyson and Hoffmann do a good job in this respect and Knox's pioneering work dating Luke-Acts to the same second century period help solidify the proper perspective with respect to the development of the canon. The Catholic Church was only getting off the ground in the second half of the second century as a reaction to Marcionitism. The problem of course is that 'Marcion' as Marutha makes explicit and Clement implicit was 'an apostle' - even 'the apostle' the head of the Church - that is, the Christian church previous to the second century reconstitution.

As Morton Smith notes in his cited opinion 'Marcion' stands in the place of Mark in Clement's formulation with good reason. There must have been great suspicion raised whenever Mark was extolled as having a superior position to his supposed master Peter. Smith uses the reference in Clement to connect back to his discovery of Secret Mark. Here Mark clearly had a separate 'revelation' which led him to add new ideas to Peter's original testimony about Jesus. Clement speaks here in terms of a 'mystical' truth but the same idea is found in Tertullian with respect to those who extol Paul over Peter. In other words, Tertullian says over and over again (the idea comes from Irenaeus) that some extol Paul for improving upon Peter's gospel, setting forth a 'secret' and more prefect understanding of Jesus.

The Catholic reconstitution of Christianity assumes - paradoxically - that there was no 'superior' gospel, that all the apostles said the same thing because they communed with the same Holy Spirit which came from the one God. We can turn this around however and assume that the heretics said that Peter understood Jesus to be a familiar divinity. In other words, in the first century the destruction of the temple didn't just mean the destruction of Judaism was divinely sanctioned (at first a jarring and seemingly wrong-headed supposition on the part of the heretics). The problem for us is that we can't get around our systematic submission to a monarchian understanding of Judaism (i.e. that the Jews only worshipped one God). For whatever reason the late second century saw Christians, Jews and Samaritans purge their tradition of those who argued - rightly - that more than one divine power appeared in the Pentateuch.

The original manner of reading the Pentateuch was clearly that there were a number of divinities - at least two overtly - where, as rabbinic authorities were wont to point out - god stands with Moses in the fire while a voice from heaven is speaking. This means (at least) two gods were active in the redemption of Israel. There is a strong sense from Clement's list of sacred works no longer available to us (the Preaching of Peter etc) that the Jews were guilty of venerating angels and that Jesus came to 'correct' the religion to recognize the highest power in heaven. This seems to have been the original message of Christianity in the earliest period (what I identify as 'first century Christianity). Nevertheless the Catholic tradition emerging in the middle to late second century imposed a rabid reactionary doctrine of monarchianism (undoubtedly with Imperial assistance). Now not only was there no longer and god but the one God (no matter how hard that was to explain given the overt statements in the Pentateuch) but more importantly THERE WAS NEVER A DOCTRINE OF TWO POWERS IN HEAVEN. This is key because the heresies - both Jewish and Christian (was there really one tradition witnessed separately by Jewish and Christian sources?) - which clearly existed as early as the first century had to be 'recreated' as only recent aberrations with the argument made by Jews and Christians that the current 'orthodoxy' ALWAYS existed from the very beginning.

This is patently absurd of course. The Jews did not venerate a single god. The Pentateuch is clearly based on a revelation of an angel to Moses. This is the basis for Jesus revelation to his age (i.e. that he was the angel who came to Moses and the Patriarchs) and so not surprisingly you have that argument made by the earliest heresiologists like Tertullian:
Now these attributes, however different they be, cannot possibly make two gods; for they have already (in the prevenient dispensation of the Old Testament) been found to meet in One. He alludes to Moses' veil, covered with which "his face could not be stedfastly seen by the children of Israel." Since he did this to maintain the superiority of the glory of the New Testament, which is permanent in its glory, over that of the Old, "which was to be done away," this fact gives support to my belief which exalts the Gospel above the law and you must look well to it that it does not even more than this. For only there is superiority possible where was previously the thing over which superiority can be affirmed. But then he says, "But their minds were blinded" ----of the world; certainly not the Creator's mind, but the minds of the people which are in the world. Of Israel he says, Even unto this day the same veil is upon their heart; " showing that the veil which was on the face of Moses was a figure of the veil which is on the heart of the nation still; because even now Moses is not seen by them in heart, just as he was not then seen by them in eye. But what concern has Paul with the veil which still obscures Moses from their view, if the Christ of the Creator, whom Moses predicted, is not yet come? How are the hearts of the Jews represented as still covered and veiled, if the predictions of Moses relating to Christ, in whom it was their duty to believe through him, are as yet unfulfilled? What had the apostle of a strange Christ to complain of, if the Jews failed in understanding the mysterious announcements of their own God, unless the veil which was upon their hearts had reference to that blindness which concealed from their eyes the Christ of Moses? Then, again, the words which follow, "But when it shall turn to the Lord, the evil shall be taken away," properly refer to the Jew, over whose gaze Moses' veil is spread, to the effect that, when he is turned to the faith of Christ, he will understand how Moses spoke of Christ. But how shall the veil of the Creator be taken away by the Christ of another god, whose mysteries the Creator could not possibly have veiled----unknown mysteries, as they were of an unknown god? So he says that "we now with open face" (meaning the candour of the heart, which in the Jews had been covered with a veil), "beholding Christ, are changed into the same image, from that glory" (wherewith Moses was transfigured as by the glory of the Lord) "to another glory." By thus setting forth the glory which illumined the person of Moses from his interview with God, and the veil which concealed the same from the infirmity of the people, and by superinducing thereupon the revelation and the glory of the Spirit in the person of Christ----"even as," to use his words, "by the Spirit of the Lord" ----he testifies that the whole Mosaic system was a figure of Christ, of whom the Jews indeed were ignorant, but who is known to us Christians. We are quite aware that some passages are open to ambiguity, from the way in which they are read, or else from their punctuation, when there is room for these two causes of ambiguity. The latter method has been adopted by Marcion, by reading the passage which follows, "in whom the God of this world,"516 as if it described the Creator as the God of this world, in order that he may, by these words, imply that there is another God for the other world. We, however, say that the passage ought to be punctuated with a comma after God, to this effect: "In whom God hath blinded the eyes of the unbelievers of this world." "In whom" means the Jewish unbelievers, from some of whom the gospel is still hidden under Moses' veil. Now it is these whom God had threatened for "loving Him indeed with the lip, whilst their heart was far from Him," in these angry words: "Ye shall hear with your ears, and not understand; and see with your eyes, but not perceive; " and, "If ye will not believe, ye shall not understand; " and again, "I will take away the wisdom of their wise men, and bring to nought the understanding of their prudent ones." But these words, of course, He did not pronounce against them for concealing the gospel of the unknown God. At any rate, if there is a God of this world, He blinds the heart of the unbelievers of this world, because they have not of their own accord recognised His Christ, who ought to be understood from His Scriptures. Content with my advantage, I can willingly refrain from noticing to any greater length524 this point of ambiguous punctuation, so as not to give my adversary any advantage, indeed, I might have wholly omitted the discussion. A simpler answer I shall find ready to hand in interpreting "the god of this world" of the devil, who once said, as the prophet describes him: "I will be like the Most High; I will exalt my throne in the clouds." The whole superstition, indeed, of this world has got into his hands, so that he blinds effectually the hearts of unbelievers, and of none more than the apostate Marcion's. Now he did not observe how much this clause of the sentence made against him: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to (give) the light of the knowledge in the face of Christ." Now who was it that said; "Let there be light? " And who was it that said to Christ concerning giving light to the world: "I have set Thee as a light to the Gentiles" ----to them, that is, "who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death? " (None else, surely, than He), to whom the Spirit in the Psalm answers, in His foresight of the future, saying, "The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, hath been displayed upon us." Now the person of the Lord here is Christ. Wherefore the apostle said above: Christ, who is the image of God." Since Christ, then, is the person of the Creator, who said, "Let there be light," it follows that Christ and the apostles, and the gospel, and the veil, and Moses----nay, the whole of the dispensations----belong to the God who is the Creator of this world, according to the testimony of the clause (above adverted to), and certainly not to him who never said, "Let there be light." I here pass over discussion about another epistle, which we hold to have been written to the Ephesians, but the heretics to the Laodiceans. In it he tells them to remember, that at the time when they were Gentiles they were without Christ, aliens from (the commonwealth of) Israel, without intercourse, without the covenants and any hope of promise, nay, without God, even in his own world, as the Creator thereof. Since therefore he said, that the Gentiles were without God, whilst their god was the devil, not the Creator, it is clear that he must be understood to be the lord of this world, whom the Gentiles received as their god----not the Creator, of whom they were in ignorance. But how does it happen, that "the treasure which we have in these earthen vessels of ours" should not be regarded as belonging to the God who owns the vessels? Now since God's glory is, that so great a treasure is contained in earthen vessels, and since these earthen vessels are of the Creator's make, it follows that the glory is the Creator's; nay, since these vessels of His smack so much of the excellency of the power of God, that power itself must be His also! Indeed, all these things have been consigned to the said "earthen vessels" for the very purpose that His excellence might be manifested forth. Henceforth, then, the rival god will have no claim to the glory, and consequently none to the power. Rather, dishonour and weakness will accrue to him, because the earthen vessels with which he had nothing to do have received all the excellency! Well, then, if it be in these very earthen vessels that he tells us we have to endure so great sufferings, in which we bear about with us the very dying of God, (Marcion's) god is really ungrateful and unjust, if he does not mean to restore this same I substance of ours at the resurrection, wherein so much has been endured in loyalty to him, in which Christ's very death is borne about, wherein too the excellency of his power is treasured. For he gives prominence to the statement, "That the life also of Christ may be manifested in our body," as a contrast to the preceding, that His death is borne about in our body. Now of what life of Christ does he here speak? Of that which we are now living? Then how is it, that in the words which follow he exhorts us not to the things which are seen and are temporal, but to those which are not seen and are eternal ----in other words, not to the present, but to the future? But if it be of the future life of Christ that he speaks, intimating that it is to be made manifest in our body, then he has clearly predicted the resurrection of the flesh. He says, too, that "our outward man perishes," not meaning by an eternal perdition after death, but by labours and sufferings, in reference to which he previously said, "For which cause we will not faint." Now, when he adds of "the inward man" also, that it "is renewed day by day," he demonstrates both issues here----the wasting away of the body by the wear and tear of its trials, and the renewal of the soul by its contemplation of the promises.
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

It was an argument of Bernard IIRC, I'll try and track down the full context.
ETA:
Bernard Muller wrote:
And gMatthew was written when Pharisees were turning into rabbis and well esteemed by Jews, allowing them to reform Judaism and end the time of distress which originated with the fall of Jerusalem. That happened way before the 140's, before 93-94 according to Josephus' Antiquities."

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=752&start=290#p16419
Josephus' Antiquities XVIII, I, 3:
"... on account of which doctrines, they [the Pharisees] are able greatly to persuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they [the people] do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction [of the Pharisees/rabbis (= teachers)]; insomuch the cities gave great attestations to them on account to their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also ..."

Notes:
a) In 'Wars', written some fifteen years earlier than 'Antiquities', the corresponding section in II, VIII, 14 does not describe the Pharisees as either teachers, or leaders, or having any appeal on other Jews.
b) As already mentioned, Pharisees are "second fiddle" to the teachers of the law in GMark but become predominant in GMatthew, written latter.
"Pharisees"/"teachers of the law": Mk = 12/20, Mt = 28/19

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Neil,
What Doherty and Carrier do is propose hypotheses and then make predictions on those hypotheses to test them.
What kind of methodology is that? Anyone can propose hypotheses, and then make predictions on those hypotheses when it is known already that these predictions are realized (most of the times for Carrier & Doherty, very dubiously & remotely). That's a win-win situation.
For example, Carrier, in his blog, predicted that "brother(s) of the Lord" would appear a few times in the Pauline epistles because (as he thinks) "brother(s) of the Lord" is a long form for "brother(s)" meaning Christians. And that happens! victory.
However I can make the same prediction, but only because Paul would have little opportunity to tell about true blood brothers of Jesus, but many opportunities for saying "brother(s)" for Christians (the later, a word he never used). But I will not stoop so low in my argumentation.

From http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/749 Carrier wrote:
"Paul sometimes refers to specific Christians as brethren, sometimes not. There is not always any particular “reason” why. It’s just a variation of style. Indeed, to always consistently refer to them as brother (or indeed, the pleonastic “brother of the Lord”) would be fastidious, which is the kind of thing all schools of the time taught writers not to do. (See my related comment in the previous thread.) Paul will be expected to mostly use just “brother,” when it can be understood from context what he means, because ancient writers understood that pleonasm was to be avoided unless it served a purpose; but such a purpose could include the equally admired practice of variatio, an element of ancient rhetorical style (to occasionally change your idiom).
Accordingly, because of how composition was taught in antiquity, we should expect Paul to stick mostly to an idiom but occasionally vary it. This entails the prediction that we will see occasional variations in the way he refers to Christians. Pleonastically including the complete phrase “brother of the Lord” would be one possible form of that variation; so the fact that we see it only occasional conforms to the prediction entailed by our background knowledge of ancient rhetoric. It is therefore expected, without requiring any particular explanation (other than this one: this is how ancient writers were taught to write).


Cordially, Bernard
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Stephan Huller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

Another important point that helps dissolve the distinction between Paul and Marcion is the fact that there appears - owing to a superficial reading of the Church Fathers - that while Marcion rejected the Law and the prophets, Paul cites from the Jewish writings. Yet listen to this important exchange in De Recta in Deum Fide:
EUTR. Now, how does the Apostle use the Prophets? If the Prophets and he speak in similar terms it is evident that he does not regard them as having no weight; on the contrary, he uses them because he believes them to have good and lawful authority.

MEG. He did not explicitly use any of the of the ancient prophets. That would be impossible. b

AD. I will demonstrate that the Apostle mentions them in many places; that he does not reject, but confirms them. In the first letter to the Corinthians, he says, "So no flesh may boast before Him. You belong to Him in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom and righteousness, holiness and redemption, so that as it stands written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." In the same letter he brings it out more definitely still, "Who tends a flock, and does not get sustenance from the milk? Surely I do not say these things by human authority, for does not even the law say these things? In the Law of Moses it stands written, c 'You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing'. Surely God is not concerned for oxen? Rather, does he not certainly speak for our sakes? It was written for our sakes, because the ploughman ought to plough in hope"138.

MEG. You know that he spoke of the law of Moses, not of God.

EUTR. I know that he spoke of the law of Moses, but he gave it authority when he said, "Surely God is not concerned for oxen? Rather does he not certainly speak for our sakes? It was written for our sakes". You see, he gave it authority and used it believing that it had been properly given. In providing an argument, no one relies on an obsolete or worthless law for proof, but depends on a better, a valid one. d Just as you, in your desire to establish your point, used Paul as a witness, so that your statements might be confirmed, so too the Apostle used the law as a witness. 23

MEG. I will prove from the Scriptures that there is one God who is the Father of Christ, and another who is the Demiurge. The Demiurge was know to Adam and his contemporaries — this is made clear in the Scriptures. But the Father of Christ is unknown, just as Christ Himself declared when he said of Him, "No one knew the Father, except the Son, neither does anyone know the Son except the Father."

AD: Your knowledge of Scripture is very small if you imagine that this was said only by the Saviour. Listen to Isaiah: e "The ox knows its owner, and the ass its master's stall: but Israel does not know me and the people do not understand Me"140
Again, the line is increasingly becoming blurred between Marcion, the head of the apostles according to the Marcionites and Paul who is deliberately given a subordinate position according to the Catholic tradition. This always felt to be a deliberate refutation of a Marcionite (and the general heretical) understanding of Paul as 'the highest authority.' But I think we might be able to take that even one step further.

The argument here is clearly based word for word - on an older text - the same text used by Tertullian for his treatise against Marcion. Compare:
MEG. I will prove from the Scriptures that there is one God who is the Father of Christ, and another who is the Demiurge. The Demiurge was know to Adam and his contemporaries — this is made clear in the Scriptures. But the Father of Christ is unknown, just as Christ Himself declared when he said of Him, "No one knew the Father, except the Son, neither does anyone know the Son except the Father."

AD: Your knowledge of Scripture is very small if you imagine that this was said only by the Saviour. Listen to Isaiah: e "The ox knows its owner, and the ass its master's stall: but Israel does not know me and the people do not understand Me"
with:
But, No man knoweth who the Father is, but the Son, and who the Son is, but the Father, and he to whomsoever the Son shall reveal him. And thus it was an unknown god whom Christ preached. From this sentence other heretics too take for themselves support, objecting that the Creator was known to all men, to Israel because they were his particular friends, to the gentiles by the law of nature. Yet how is it that the Creator himself testifies that even Israel does not know him? But Israel doth not know me, my people hath not understood me. [Tertullian Against Marcion iv.25]
As noted earlier, things are not always as they seem with the Church Fathers.
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