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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:45 pm
by Ben C. Smith
davidmartin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:05 pm what's interesting about Jerome's piece is it clearly mirrors the gospel Jesus's story
Born in Galilee (but confusion over Judea), escapes when persecutors come with his parents (to Tarsus not Egypt) then goes to Jerusalem to study law (as per child Jesus at the temple)
Very perceptive.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:21 pm
by Giuseppe
Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:02 am Knowing what you consider evidence in your favor, I am not interested to learn your other pieces of evidence.
What about this:

'For we,' said I, 'have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to the Gentiles for a testimony against you, that your unbelief may be judged by their faith.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080401.htm

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:51 am
by lsayre
Is it possible that rather than moving to Tarsus, Paul's family moved south to Taurus in Judea? It is right next to Jericho.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:39 am
by perseusomega9
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:45 pm
davidmartin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:05 pm what's interesting about Jerome's piece is it clearly mirrors the gospel Jesus's story
Born in Galilee (but confusion over Judea), escapes when persecutors come with his parents (to Tarsus not Egypt) then goes to Jerusalem to study law (as per child Jesus at the temple)
Very perceptive.
I second Ben's remark.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:39 pm
by Bernard Muller
to Giuseppe,
OK, this evidence (from the Recognitions of Clement) could be used by Paulg. However that evidence is coming from unknown author (unlikely to be Clement of Rome), dating unknown (end of 2nd century in my view), in a Christian "romance" text.
But my initial question to Paulg was:
Do you have evidence that Christianity, including Jewish Christianity, did NOT start before 70 AD?
On that, the Recognitions of Clement has Christian beliefs being preached well before the fall of Jerusalem.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:53 am
by andrewcriddle
Jerome's tradition may possibly be rooted in a 1st century BCE forced relocation of Paul's ancestors to Tarsus possibly in the time of Pompey.

Andrew Criddle

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:54 am
by gryan
perseusomega9 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:39 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:45 pm
davidmartin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:05 pm what's interesting about Jerome's piece is it clearly mirrors the gospel Jesus's story
Born in Galilee (but confusion over Judea), escapes when persecutors come with his parents (to Tarsus not Egypt) then goes to Jerusalem to study law (as per child Jesus at the temple)
Very perceptive.
I second Ben's remark.
Yes. Me too.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:15 am
by gryan
davidmartin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:05 pm what's interesting about Jerome's piece is it clearly mirrors the gospel Jesus's story
Born in Galilee (but confusion over Judea), escapes when persecutors come with his parents (to Tarsus not Egypt) then goes to Jerusalem to study law (as per child Jesus at the temple)
Like Bernard I highly doubt Jerome's account has any accuracy. It looks cobbled together from the gospel's own story presumably to set the record straight against other versions of Paul's origins which were known to exist (Ebionites said he was a gentile convert and not Jewish at all, what Jerome's version does it explain how come Paul is 'of Tarsus' and yet Jewish a bit like how Jesus's story explains he is 'of Nazareth' but born in Bethlehem)
RE: Jerome's report that Paul was born in Galilee. Tabor, in his book, Jesus and Paul, suggests that it may very well be historical. I'm not sure why, exactly, but the idea of Jesus and Paul both coming from Galilee has stuck in my mind as making sense. Now, in light of the broader context of Jerome's report, I'm pondering afresh the historicity of Jerome's report of Paul's birth in Galilee.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:54 am
by Secret Alias
I haven't been following this thread I must admit but ...

In order to make a case, I think you have to acknowledge the following.

1. the expectation is something like 'history + myth.' In other words, people aren't very creative. To convince people that someone/something was a god you'd have to have extraordinary circumstances - i.e. a 'hero' type. Even the Indo-European 'Zeus' 'Deus-pater' and related Indian god(s) are just a generic Father god. Hercules probably started as a hero cult.

2. if Christianity was not based on this sort of cult-phenomenon, if it wasn't history + myth but pure myth you'd have to develop an argument for a different scenario. In other words, a literary culture which could 'create' a man and then disseminate this understanding through pre-existent literary societies etc.

I've never seen this argument ever made.

Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:17 am
by Bernard Muller
1. the expectation is something like 'history + myth.' In other words, people aren't very creative. To convince people that someone/something was a god you'd have to have extraordinary circumstances - i.e. a 'hero' type. Even the Indo-European 'Zeus' 'Deus-pater' and related Indian god(s) are just a generic Father god. Hercules probably started as a hero cult.
Jesus was a hero type, but a very peculiar one: he was Christ crucified or rather king of the Jews crucified.
A king of the Jews is not supposed to be crucified, more so when he did not even reign before his execution.
Therefore, the thinking among some Jews was: he had to be saved in heaven and then come back to truly be a king. See Mt 25:31-46
That got a cult to start.

How a Galilean lower class rustic got to be believed "king of the Jews": http://historical-jesus.info/46.html Here is my understanding (after years of study) on who was the one called "historical Jesus". All of that "in a few words" with links for details and justifications from my website.
How an accidental healer, who was also a poor uneducated Jew, got to be crucified as "king of the Jews".

Cordially, Bernard