Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

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GakuseiDon
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Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

Post by GakuseiDon » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:05 pm

Sometimes Paul changes the wording in passages of the OT to provide his own reading of what "was said". For example, in Roms 11: 26 (KJV):

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This seems to be based on Isaiah 59:20:

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isaiah has the Redeemer coming to Zion, while Paul has the Deliverer coming out of Zion. Was Paul's change to the OT text here unusual? Might someone have tapped Paul on the shoulder in those days and say "You know, you're quoting the passage incorrectly"? Or was such a thing a common and accepted way of using the OT text? Paul also occasionally takes two passages and smashes them together to form a single one and attributing it to scriptures. I was wondering how controversial this kind of creative use of the OT was in Paul's time.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:22 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:05 pm
Sometimes Paul changes the wording in passages of the OT to provide his own reading of what "was said". For example, in Roms 11: 26 (KJV):

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This seems to be based on Isaiah 59:20:

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isaiah has the Redeemer coming to Zion, while Paul has the Deliverer coming out of Zion. Was Paul's change to the OT text here unusual? Might someone have tapped Paul on the shoulder in those days and say "You know, you're quoting the passage incorrectly"? Or was such a thing a common and accepted way of using the OT text? Paul also occasionally takes two passages and smashes them together to form a single one and attributing it to scriptures. I was wondering how controversial this kind of creative use of the OT was in Paul's time.
In line with our previous discussion of this reference, I doubt anyone around Paul, whether friend or foe, would have taken exception to his methodology in cases like this. In this instance, for example, it looks like one of the psalms is also being conflated with the quotation from Isaiah, and the overall idea of the Redeemer coming from Zion is well established in Jewish exegesis, so all debate with Paul would probably have hinged on his identification of that Redeemer, not on his combining of words, phrases, and ideas from multiple scriptural passages.

If you look at the scriptural debates put forth in the Mishnah and in the Talmud, you will not find a lot of criticism by one rabbi of another rabbi's combining of ideas from different scriptures, nor will you even find a lot of direct contradiction; rather, you will find the second rabbi attempting to locate a better prooftext.

ETA: I would add, too, that ancient exegetes seem to have had a different relationship to words in general than modern college educated readers do. Josephus, for example, claims to have translated the Hebrew scriptures without "adding any thing to them" of his own or "taking any thing away from them," either, in his Antiquities. That is not how I myself would describe the Antiquities.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:47 am

I have comments on that: http://historical-jesus.info/djp1.html#skandalon

Cordially, Bernard

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

Post by GakuseiDon » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:29 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:22 am
In line with our previous discussion of this reference, I doubt anyone around Paul, whether friend or foe, would have taken exception to his methodology in cases like this.
Well, that's embarrassing... I thought I'd raised this before, but that thread wasn't so long ago. :oops: Anyway, thanks as always Ben!

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul and Roms 11:26 Redeemer in or out of Zion?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:25 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:29 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:22 am
In line with our previous discussion of this reference, I doubt anyone around Paul, whether friend or foe, would have taken exception to his methodology in cases like this.
Well, that's embarrassing... I thought I'd raised this before, but that thread wasn't so long ago. :oops: Anyway, thanks as always Ben!
No problem. It can get confusing to keep up.

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