Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by GakuseiDon » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:16 pm

I think that Acts 17 hints of Paul's activities in portraying a picture of Christ from scriptures:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... s-kjv.html

Acts 17
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas...


Bernard Muller
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:23 pm

to rgprice,
So, you would have:
"Before your very eyes, Jesus Christ was forewritten as having been crucified."

Does that make sense?

Cordially, Bernard

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:50 pm

rgprice wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:25 am
When you look at the context it seems pretty clear that it is "forewritten".

YLT:
6 according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;

7 know ye, then, that those of faith -- these are sons of Abraham,

8 and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham --

9 `Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham,
NRSV:
6 Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” 7 so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.” 9 For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.
In the first part he's saying, the writings have foreseen the crucifixion of Jesus. Don't you believe what God is telling you? Look at Abraham, Abraham believed what God told him. The scriptures also foresaw that God would declare himself to all the nations.

Seems pretty clear. Its an obvious example of making an point and then reinforcing that same point by reiterating it. Paul talking about how he himself is so good at painting pictures with words is kind of ridiculous.
Paul has zero difficulty ascribing salvific power to his own preaching of the gospel:

Romans 10.8-10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 10.14: 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 1.21: 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15.1-2, 11: 1 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. .... 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

1 Corinthians 15.12: 12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

2 Corinthians 1.19: 19 For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us, by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.

For Paul, the gospel he is preaching is an integral part of the divine plan and, if anything, was itself predicted in scripture. Of course he could be reminding the Galatians that they originally believed in his gospel, and wondering out loud why they are slipping away from that belief.

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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by gryan » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:58 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:13 pm
to gryan,
I have argued for reading προεγράφη in its literal sense--"written formerly"--because I can easily imagine Paul (as in the closing where he says "See what large letters..." ) reminding the Galatians of how they, as co-senders (Cf "the brothers with me" Gal 1:2), had literally seen the letters of an epistle he had written formerly before their very eyes.
"the brothers with me" refers to those with Paul when he wrote Galatians, certainly not referring to his converts in Galatia.
No, sorry, that was written confusingly. What I'm trying to suggest is a Sitz im Leben where Paul had written some other letter--1 Cor for example, or one like it--and he had written it from Galatia. He could be reminding the Galatian "brothers" of a former time when they had been co-senders announcing "Christ Jesus" and him "having been crucified." Such a Sitz im Leben makes Paul's choice of words--"written formerly" and "before your eyes"--unambiguously sensible, it seems to me.

Your thoughts?

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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:52 pm

robert j wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:03 am
...The author of GMark had another problem to solve --- how to characterize Paul’s Jesus Christ having come in the likeness of man. Mark chose to portray a man Jesus being possessed by the heavenly spirit during the baptism scene.
GMark has nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called Pauline Epistles. The Markan Jesus preached salvation by works whereas the Epistles teach salvation through faith.

Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
The Pauline teachings contradict those of the Markan Jesus.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The author of GMark appears to have not heard about Paul, not seen a Pauline letter and did not attend a Pauline Church.

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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:53 am

to gryan,
No, sorry, that was written confusingly. What I'm trying to suggest is a Sitz im Leben where Paul had written some other letter--1 Cor for example, or one like it--and he had written it from Galatia. He could be reminding the Galatian "brothers" of a former time when they had been co-senders announcing "Christ Jesus" and him "having been crucified." Such a Sitz im Leben makes Paul's choice of words--"written formerly" and "before your eyes"--unambiguously sensible, it seems to me.

Your thoughts?
That's a complicated solution. It requires Paul wrote an epistle from Galatia, but we don't have any shred of evidence for that. Added to that, we have to accept Paul's Galatians (from several churches) would be co-senders of that letter, and at least aware of the content: that's a lot to swallow without evidence.
And it would be rather strange that Paul affirmed to have made known to his Galatians "Christ crucified" only by being written in an epistle not even addressed to them.

Cordially, Bernard

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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by robert j » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:05 am

[blue highlighted text is yours --- I highlighted your claims in gray] ---
hakeem wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:52 pm
robert j wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:03 am
...The author of GMark had another problem to solve --- how to characterize Paul’s Jesus Christ having come in the likeness of man. Mark chose to portray a man Jesus being possessed by the heavenly spirit during the baptism scene.
GMark has nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called Pauline Epistles. The Markan Jesus preached salvation by works whereas the Epistles teach salvation through faith.

Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
The Pauline teachings contradict those of the Markan Jesus.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The author of GMark appears to have not heard about Paul, not seen a Pauline letter and did not attend a Pauline Church.
In the letters, Paul gave significant emphasis on faith, but he certainly did not ignore the requirement for works, that is, for appropriate behavior.

Regarding the first example you highlighted in blue about the commandments --- Paul addressed that by rolling them into just one. Certainly one who loves his neighbors won’t be killing them ---

For the entire Law is fulfilled in in this one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14)

Paul's explicit strictures focused on a wide variety of behaviors ----

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. … The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law… Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another. (Galatians 5:16-25)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

As for your second example highlighted in blue, setting aside his possible motivations, Paul did not ignore the needs of those he considered “the poor” ---

… only that we should be mindful of the poor, also the same thing that I was eager to do. (Galatians 2:10)

… that there may be equality. At the present time, your surplus will meet their need, so that in turn their surplus will meet your need. Then there will be equality. As it is written: “He who gathered much had no excess, and he who gathered little had no shortfall.” (1 Corinthians 8:13-15)

Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: “He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.” (1 Corinthians 9:7-9).

Last edited by robert j on Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

rgprice
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:10 am

GMark has nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called Pauline Epistles. The Markan Jesus preached salvation by works whereas the Epistles teach salvation through faith.
Err..
Mark 2: 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 4: 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith?” 41 And they were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Mark 5: 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mark 11: 21 Then Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” 22 Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received[c] it, and it will be yours.

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:40 am

rgprice wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:10 am
GMark has nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called Pauline Epistles. The Markan Jesus preached salvation by works whereas the Epistles teach salvation through faith.
Err..
Mark 2: 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 4: 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith?” 41 And they were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Mark 5: 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mark 11: 21 Then Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” 22 Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received[c] it, and it will be yours.
Those passages from GMark have nothing to do with eternal salvation .
The question about eternal salvation is clearly posed in GMark 10.

Mark 10:17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
The response--One must first follow the Law in order to be get eternal salvation

Mark 10 :19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
GMark is in opposition to the Pauline Epistles.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ. that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:11 pm

robert j wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:05 am

In the letters, Paul gave significant emphasis on faith, but he certainly did not ignore the requirement for works, that is, for appropriate behavior.

Regarding the first example you highlighted in blue about the commandments --- Paul addressed that by rolling them into just one. Certainly one who loves his neighbors won’t be killing them ---

For the entire Law is fulfilled in in this one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14)


Paul's explicit strictures focused on a wide variety of behaviors ----

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. … The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law… Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another. (Galatians 5:16-25)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

As for your second example highlighted in blue, setting aside his possible motivations, Paul did not ignore the needs of those he considered “the poor” ---

… only that we should be mindful of the poor, also the same thing that I was eager to do. (Galatians 2:10)

… that there may be equality. At the present time, your surplus will meet their need, so that in turn their surplus will meet your need. Then there will be equality. As it is written: “He who gathered much had no excess, and he who gathered little had no shortfall.” (1 Corinthians 8:13-15)

Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: “He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.” (1 Corinthians 9:7-9).

You seem not to understand that in the Pauline Epistles that one cannot be saved by following the Law but must believe that the Pauline Christ was raised from the dead.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


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