Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

@hakeem

Actually the teaching on eternal life also comes from Paul, contradictory as it may seem. It's a reference to Romans:
Mark 10:
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Romans 2:
5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Notice also that Jesus doesn't even say the law in Mark 10, he talks about the commandments.

Anyway, here's my short list of parallels between Mark and Paul. David Oliver Smith identifies over 70 parallels.

Mark Paul
01:01-01 Philip 4:15
01:16-19 Gal 2:9
04:11-12 Rom 11:7-8
06:7-9 1 Cor 4:11-13
07:21-23 Gal 5:19-21
08:12-13 1 Cor 1:22
08:15-16 1 Cor 5:8
08:29-33 Gal 2:11
08:35-36 Philip 1:20
08:38-39 Philip 2:15
09:38-41 Philip 1:18
10:11-12 1 Cor 7:10
10:43-44 1 Cor 9:19
12:16-17 Rom 13:6
12:18-23 1 Cor 15:12-14
12:24-25 1 Cor 15:35-50
12:28-31 Rom 13:9
13:32-37 1 Thes 5:2-6
13:9-13 2 Cor 11:23-26
14:22-25 1 Cor 11:23-26
14:36-38 Rom 8:5-15
14:67-72 Gal 2:11-14
Mark 10:
41 When the ten heard this, they began to be angry with James and John. 42 So Jesus called them and said to them, ‘You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 43 But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.’
1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them.
hakeem
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:42 am @hakeem

Actually the teaching on eternal life also comes from Paul, contradictory as it may seem. It's a reference to Romans:
Mark 10:
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Romans 2:
5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Notice also that Jesus doesn't even say the law in Mark 10, he talks about the commandments.

Anyway, here's my short list of parallels between Mark and Paul. David Oliver Smith identifies over 70 parallels.

Mark Paul
01:01-01 Philip 4:15
01:16-19 Gal 2:9
04:11-12 Rom 11:7-8
06:7-9 1 Cor 4:11-13
07:21-23 Gal 5:19-21
08:12-13 1 Cor 1:22
08:15-16 1 Cor 5:8
08:29-33 Gal 2:11
08:35-36 Philip 1:20
08:38-39 Philip 2:15
09:38-41 Philip 1:18
10:11-12 1 Cor 7:10
10:43-44 1 Cor 9:19
12:16-17 Rom 13:6
12:18-23 1 Cor 15:12-14
12:24-25 1 Cor 15:35-50
12:28-31 Rom 13:9
13:32-37 1 Thes 5:2-6
13:9-13 2 Cor 11:23-26
14:22-25 1 Cor 11:23-26
14:36-38 Rom 8:5-15
14:67-72 Gal 2:11-14
I have examined some of the passages that you mention but most of them appear to be cherry-picked passages with phrases or words that are also found in other books of the Christian Bible.

The author of Mark shows very clearly his supposed Jesus did not come to abolish Jewish Laws or start a new religion unlike the NT Epistles.

Mark 1:44
And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:42 am
Mark 10:
41 When the ten heard this, they began to be angry with James and John. 42 So Jesus called them and said to them, ‘You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 43 But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.’
1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them.
[/quote]

This appears to be another example where the Pauline writer shows previous knowledge of stories about the Jesus character. After all the Pauline writers claimed they persecuted those who believed the Jesus stories and that the faith was already being preached.
It must also be noted that so-called Pauline writers admit they were writing after they claimed their Jesus was already dead and buried.

Stories that Jesus said, "whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all" was most likely already known before any NT Epistle was written.

Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
moses
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Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by moses »

"Notice also that Jesus doesn't even say the law in Mark 10, he talks about the commandments."

You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’” 20 He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.”


Dr price, does this mean that the two greatest commandments are not included in this?
rgprice
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

@hakeem
Stories that Jesus said, "whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all" was most likely already known before any NT Epistle was written.
No evidence of that whatsoever.
Matthew 23:11
Matthew copied from Mark, as did every single Gospel writer, canonical and non-canonical.
Dr price, does this mean that the two greatest commandments are not included in this?
Firstly, I'm not Dr. Robert M. Price.

Secondly, I won't pretend to know. It seems to me that the writer of Mark was largely paraphrasing various passages from Paul. Paul contradicts himself. Sometimes the Gospel of Mark gets into contradictions because its referencing Paul who has contradictions. I'm not sure that an exact formula was intended in the Gospel of Mark. I don't see it as a story that was intended to lay out a set of check boxes for the development of a precise liturgy, which, ironically enough is what the Gospels were turns into.
gryan
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:17 am ...I'm not Dr. Robert M. Price.
Good to know that!

I myself was mistaken about your identity. Partly because you said you were certain that 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 as a Post-Pauline Interpolation, and then, when I Googled the argument, I found this:
https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html The middle initial escaped me.

I see from the web that people have gotten confused about your identity before:

"Interestingly, the positions of the Robert Price and of R. G. Price are actually fairly similar."
https://evidenceforchristianity.org/can ... r-of-mark/

I've enjoyed your posts.
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

Yeah, it is a bit ironic. Our positions are quite similar indeed. He also wrote a forward to my first book. He's a great guy. (Let's just leave all Trump discussions out of it.)
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:37 am (Let's just leave all Trump discussions out of it.)
Yea, I see that Robert M. is was "on the Trump train"!

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/201 ... t-m-price/
hakeem
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem »

Stories of Jesus must have preceded NT Epistles. The very author of so-called Pauline Epistles admitted the faith he was preaching was taught by those whom he had persecuted.

Galatians 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

rgprice wrote:
Matthew copied from Mark, as did every single Gospel writer, canonical and non-canonical.
The authors of the Epistles used the Gospels. Every single NT writing is after 70 CE and is based on the short gMak or its sources.
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:17 am....... It seems to me that the writer of Mark was largely paraphrasing various passages from Paul. Paul contradicts himself. Sometimes the Gospel of Mark gets into contradictions because its referencing Paul who has contradictions. I'm not sure that an exact formula was intended in the Gospel of Mark. I don't see it as a story that was intended to lay out a set of check boxes for the development of a precise liturgy, which, ironically enough is what the Gospels were turns into.
It does not appear to me that the author of the short GMark used anything at all from the Epistles.
It is the opposite. The so-called Paul appears to have relied on at least GLuke and Acts of the Apostles or their sources.

The commission by the resurrected Jesus to preach the Gospel to the whole world is not found at all in the short Gmark but is found in later writings including NT Epistles.

The Markan Jesus prohibited his disciples from telling anyone he was Christ which is in complete contradiction to the Epistles.

Mark 8
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

davidmartin
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by davidmartin »

The authors of the Epistles used the Gospels. Every single NT writing is after 70 CE and is based on the short gMak or its sources
i'm not seeing any need for any NT epistle to rely on or know a gospel
by the mid 2nd century (Justin) this picture has changed and if one includes Papias talking about the presbyters of his day (late 1st century) then gospels were indeed in use at this time
how to resolve this?
I propose that the Pauline writings are early and did not use or accept a gospel
I propose the later epistles are late 1st century/early 2nd but did not use a gospel, however a gospel began to be used around this time and this took a while to be accepted in every corner of the proto-orthodox church, to finally emerge into the position advanced by Ireneous
hakeem
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by hakeem »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:17 am
The authors of the Epistles used the Gospels. Every single NT writing is after 70 CE and is based on the short gMak or its sources
i'm not seeing any need for any NT epistle to rely on or know a gospel
Stories of Jesus must have preceded the writing of NT Epistles.

The supposed Pauline writers claimed their Jesus was already dead and resurrected. And not only was their supposed Jesus dead and resurrected before the Epistles were written but the writers also claimed they persecuted those who believed stories of Jesus.

In addition, the Epistle writers also claimed they received information from the same dead Jesus that is found in the Gospels.

It is virtually impossible to understand the NT Epistles without first reading the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

It must be noted that NT Epistles appear to have been written to those who have already believed or known stories of Jesus.
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