"Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of David?

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theomise
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"Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of David?

Post by theomise »

"Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = self-proclaimed descendents of David?


Question: From a pragmatic Roman military perspective, what is the operational definition of "son of David"?


Realistically, if a threat existed at all in Judea, there were at best some punters circa 50-150AD claiming to be "messiahs" in a theocratic-nationalist sense, and perhaps basing their divine kingship on alleged "descent from David"?

Let's look at the so-called "textual evidence"....

Hegesippus via Eusebius (3:20):
After the capture of the Jews by (Emperor) Vespasian "there still survived of the kindred of the Lord the (two) grandsons of Judas, who (Judas) according to the flesh was called his (Jesus') brother. These were informed against, as belonging to the family of David, and (an official named) Evocatus (or a person who held the rank of an evocati in the army) brought them before Domitian Caesar: for (that one) dreaded the coming of Christ, as Herod had done. Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord's brother according to the flesh. Information was given that they belonged to the family of David, and they were brought to the Emperor Domitian by the Evocatus. For Domitian feared the coming of Christ as Herod also had feared it. And he asked them if they were descendants of David, and they confessed that they were.

Hegesippus via Eusebius (3:32)
It is reported that after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording, a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom. Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also. Speaking of certain heretics he adds that Symeon was accused by them at this time; and since it was clear that he was a Christian, he was tortured in various ways for many days, and astonished even the judge himself and his attendants in the highest degree, and finally he suffered a death similar to that of our Lord. But there is nothing like hearing the historian himself, who writes as follows: "Certain of these heretics brought accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a descendant of David and a Christian; and thus he suffered martyrdom, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, while Trajan was emperor and Atticus governor." And the same writer says that his [i.e., Symeon, the son of Clopas] accusers also, when search was made for the descendants of David, were arrested as belonging to that family. And it might be reasonably assumed that Symeon was one of those that saw and heard the Lord, judging from the length of his life, and from the fact that the Gospel makes mention of Mary, the wife of Clopas, who was the father of Symeon, as has been already shown.

Julius Africanus via Eusebius (1:7)
For the relatives of our Lord according to the flesh, whether with the desire of boasting or simply wishing to state the fact, in either case truly, have banded down the following account: Some Idumean robbers, having attacked Ascalon, a city of Palestine, carried away from a temple of Apollo which stood near the walls, in addition to other booty, Antipater, son of a certain temple slave named Herod. And since the priest was not able to pay the ransom for his son, Antipater was brought up in the customs of the Idumeans, and afterward was befriended by Hyrcanus, the high priest of the Jews. And having, been sent by Hyrcanus on an embassy to Pompey, and having restored to him the kingdom which had been invaded by his brother Aristobulus, he had the good fortune to be named procurator of Palestine. But Antipater having been slain by those who were envious of his great good fortune was succeeded by his son Herod, who was afterward, by a decree of the senate, made King of the Jews under Antony and Augustus. His sons were Herod and the other tetrarchs. These accounts agree also with those of the Greeks. But as there had been kept in the archives up to that time the genealogies of the Hebrews as well as of those who traced their lineage back to proselytes, such as Achior the Ammonite and Ruth the Moabitess, and to those who were mingled with the Israelites and came out of Egypt with them, Herod, inasmuch as the lineage of the Israelites contributed nothing to his advantage, and since he was goaded with the consciousness of his own ignoble extraction, burned all the genealogical records, thinking that he might appear of noble origin if no one else were able, from the public registers, to trace back his lineage to the patriarchs or proselytes and to those mingled with them, who were called Georae. A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction. Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world, they drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible.
(^ Obviously, there would be no need to dig through ancient pre-Herodian records if your grandpa was a contemporary of Jesus)
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DCHindley
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by DCHindley »

theomise,

I'm not sure what your point is ...

DCH (I also recognize the commentary in parentheses within that first quote as something I wrote a long time ago)
theomise
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by theomise »

DCHindley wrote:theomise,

I'm not sure what your point is ...

DCH (I also recognize the commentary in parentheses within that first quote as something I wrote a long time ago)
My point is that the concept of "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" does not depend on the existence of a historical Jesus. Anyone claiming descent from David would qualify (as long as enough other people buy into it).

I base this on the fact that the verification criteria people were using to determine whether a person is among the Desposyni consisted solely in assessing "descent from David". Specifically, the operational definition did NOT involve determining whether a person was related to a supposed "historical Jesus".

So the use of that phrase should have zero evidential value for historicists.

As for the Eusebius quotations, I randomly copied them from somewhere on the internet a while ago... was it your webpage? :)
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DCHindley
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by DCHindley »

No web page, I had uploaded it as a file to several discussion board archives. It dates, I think, to 1997, and is pretty crude compared to what I might write today.

However, I think the story has to be broken down into digestible bites.

What Africanus is saying is that certain "relatives of our Lord according to the flesh," called Desposyni, who were a subset of "the careful, [who] obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names, or by getting them in some other way, from the registers," had provided a genealogy for Herod that was at variance with Herod's own claims, that he was a son of free Idumeans who had converted to Judean ways in the time of John Hyrcanus (ca. 125 BCE), and thus a legitimate Judean according to Judean Law. The Desposyni were claiming that Herod's father Antipater had been a slave, which they felt would disqualify his son Herod from being a legitimate Judean king. Well, at least not as legitimate as Jesus was "legitimate," which would mean they believed that Jesus' royal genealogy was as good as that of a Hyrcanus II or Aristobulus II.

There are also others who think the throwaway line "the aforesaid genealogy" refers not to Herod's genealogy but to Africanus' own reconciliation of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, previously mentioned, suggesting that they differed from one another because they were derived from the now lost records "from memory and ... as faithfully as possible." I doubt this as it seems to deviate from the flow of the discussion.
Julius Africanus via Eusebius (1:7) wrote:
For the relatives of our Lord according to the flesh, whether with the desire of boasting or simply wishing to state the fact, in either case truly, have banded down the following account:

Some Idumean robbers, having attacked Ascalon, a city of Palestine, carried away from a temple of Apollo which stood near the walls, in addition to other booty, Antipater, son of a certain temple slave named Herod. And since the priest was not able to pay the ransom for his son, Antipater was brought up in the customs of the Idumeans, and afterward was befriended by Hyrcanus, the high priest of the Jews. And having, been sent by Hyrcanus on an embassy to Pompey, and having restored to him the kingdom which had been invaded by his brother Aristobulus, he had the good fortune to be named procurator of Palestine. But Antipater having been slain by those who were envious of his great good fortune was succeeded by his son Herod, who was afterward, by a decree of the senate, made King of the Jews under Antony and Augustus. His sons were Herod and the other tetrarchs. These accounts agree also with those of the Greeks.

But as there had been kept in the archives up to that time the genealogies of the Hebrews as well as of those who traced their lineage back to proselytes, such as Achior the Ammonite and Ruth the Moabitess, and to those who were mingled with the Israelites and came out of Egypt with them,

Herod, inasmuch as the lineage of the Israelites contributed nothing to his advantage, and since he was goaded with the consciousness of his own ignoble extraction, burned all the genealogical records, thinking that he might appear of noble origin if no one else were able, from the public registers, to trace back his lineage to [either] the patriarchs or proselytes and to those mingled with them [i.e., the Judeans], who were called Georae.

A few of the careful, however, having obtained private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting them in some other way from the registers, pride themselves on preserving the memory of their noble extraction.

Among these are those already mentioned, called Desposyni, on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour. Coming from Nazara and Cochaba, villages of Judea, into other parts of the world,

they [i.e., the careful] drew the aforesaid genealogy from memory and from the book of daily records as faithfully as possible.
Whether the Desposyni actually had a better claim of legitimate royal descent than say a Hasmonean prince, is not proven by any sort of evidence. The Hasmonean dynasty were "legitimate" because Simon was recognized as a hereditary governor as well as High Priest by the Syrians in 143/142 BCE, which he then formalized by a popular decree in 141 BCE, stating he and his family would rule "for ever, until there should arise a faithful prophet [to say otherwise]" (1 Macc. 14.41). The Desposyni had merely attempted to discredit the legitimacy of any claims to the crown by the Herodian princes, and this protest was directed at the Romans and/or Parthians, the only world powers of that time who could claim the right to appoint a Judean king in that general period. Now that the Hasmonean royal line had been extinguished upon the death of Antigonus II, they ask (rhetorically): "why not appoint a person of Davidic descent?"

DCH
theomise
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by theomise »

Hi DCHindley,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

My best guess is that I filched the Eusebius text from here: http://www.christianorigins.com/citations.html

If you don't own that site, maybe a lawsuit is in order...? :D

In any case, none of the parenthetical comments are necessary vis-a-vis the case I'm trying to make.

Namely, that nobody is being asked to prove whether or not their uncle was "Jesus".

The only relevant attribute is (perceived) Davidic descent. Which is why inspection of ancient genealogical records would be necessary in the first place.

Hence, the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
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spin
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by spin »

theomise wrote:the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
Desposyni doesn't mean "brothers of the lord" (it's plural) and I don't think it even implies it. It's an adjective derived from the Greek word that gives us "despot", which then indicated a temporal ruler. The word is used in Lk 2:29 to refer to god (see also Acts 4:24). No gospel uses it for Jesus. If has come to refer to Jesus it was after the biblical era. Let's note that the statement regarding the Desposyni regards "their connection with the family of the Saviour", not the family of the savior directly. Care needs to be exercised in trying to use this term, Desposyni. It seems opaque to me.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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maryhelena
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by maryhelena »

theomise wrote:Hi DCHindley,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

My best guess is that I filched the Eusebius text from here: http://www.christianorigins.com/citations.html

If you don't own that site, maybe a lawsuit is in order...? :D

In any case, none of the parenthetical comments are necessary vis-a-vis the case I'm trying to make.

Namely, that nobody is being asked to prove whether or not their uncle was "Jesus".

The only relevant attribute is (perceived) Davidic descent. Which is why inspection of ancient genealogical records would be necessary in the first place.

Hence, the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
I don't see that......

Just because 'brothers of the lord' does not indicate brothers of a flesh and blood gospel Jesus (assumed) does not make the proposed alternative, mythicism, (the Carrier-Doherty theory) a viable alternative. The Davidic descent relates to the 'son of David' in the gospel story. That this figure is not historical does not mean that there is no historical relevance to the gospel story. It is a very big jump from the gospel story to the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory.

The 'son of David' element in gMatthew is a messianic, prophetic, interpretation. Whatever the ins and outs of such an OT interpretation, the basic premise is political Messianism. A premise the gospel story and its Jesus figure reflect:

So then, give back to Caesar what is his, and give back to God what belongs to God. That is the zealot argument in its simplest, most concise form.

Aslan, Reza (2013-08-08). Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth (Kindle Locations 1538-1539). Saqi. Kindle Edition.

The relevant question is: Given that their story is not historical but a pseudo-historical, or prophetic take, on Jewish history, what messianic ideas were of interest to the gospel writers? That's the real issue here for the gospel story - not a cosmic crucified salvation figure. Endeavoring to remove or sidestep a political component, a political component that influenced the gospel writing, would be very shortsighted for the Carrier-Doherty mythicists. Especially so if it's early christian origins that we are seeking....Pauline theology does not trump historical realities.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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theomise
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by theomise »

spin wrote:
theomise wrote:the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
Desposyni doesn't mean "brothers of the lord" (it's plural) and I don't think it even implies it. It's an adjective derived from the Greek word that gives us "despot", which then indicated a temporal ruler. The word is used in Lk 2:29 to refer to god (see also Acts 4:24). No gospel uses it for Jesus. If has come to refer to Jesus it was after the biblical era. Let's note that the statement regarding the Desposyni regards "their connection with the family of the Saviour", not the family of the savior directly. Care needs to be exercised in trying to use this term, Desposyni. It seems opaque to me.
Appreciate your insights, thanks.
theomise
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by theomise »

maryhelena wrote:
theomise wrote:Hi DCHindley,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

My best guess is that I filched the Eusebius text from here: http://www.christianorigins.com/citations.html

If you don't own that site, maybe a lawsuit is in order...? :D

In any case, none of the parenthetical comments are necessary vis-a-vis the case I'm trying to make.

Namely, that nobody is being asked to prove whether or not their uncle was "Jesus".

The only relevant attribute is (perceived) Davidic descent. Which is why inspection of ancient genealogical records would be necessary in the first place.

Hence, the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
I don't see that......

Just because 'brothers of the lord' does not indicate brothers of a flesh and blood gospel Jesus (assumed) does not make the proposed alternative, mythicism, (the Carrier-Doherty theory) a viable alternative.
Whoa now, Mary.... Stand down!!! :) I never connected any of this to Carrier-Doherty theory.

My only suggestion here is that phrases like "brothers of the Lord", "Desposyni", "Kyriakos", etc. do not require a historical Jesus.

No need to get political. :mrgreen:
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maryhelena
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Re: "Brothers of the Lord"/"Desposyni" = descendents of Davi

Post by maryhelena »

theomise wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
theomise wrote:Hi DCHindley,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

My best guess is that I filched the Eusebius text from here: http://www.christianorigins.com/citations.html

If you don't own that site, maybe a lawsuit is in order...? :D

In any case, none of the parenthetical comments are necessary vis-a-vis the case I'm trying to make.

Namely, that nobody is being asked to prove whether or not their uncle was "Jesus".

The only relevant attribute is (perceived) Davidic descent. Which is why inspection of ancient genealogical records would be necessary in the first place.

Hence, the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
I don't see that......

Just because 'brothers of the lord' does not indicate brothers of a flesh and blood gospel Jesus (assumed) does not make the proposed alternative, mythicism, (the Carrier-Doherty theory) a viable alternative.
Whoa now, Mary.... Stand down!!! :) I never connected any of this to Carrier-Doherty theory.

My only suggestion here is that phrases like "brothers of the Lord", "Desposyni", "Kyriakos", etc. do not require a historical Jesus.

No need to get political. :mrgreen:
OK :D

But what did you mean with this statement - what mythicism are you referring to??
Hence, the phrase "brother of the lord" (or "Desposyni") is ultimately evidence for mythicism rather than historicism.
my bolding

Yes, I get what you wanted to say - 'brother of the lord' is not evidence for a historical Jesus - therefore it is evidence for 'mythicism' i.e. a mythicism that is simply denying the historicity of the gospel Jesus.

However, around this forum - 'mythicism' is almost synonymous with the Carrier-Doherty theory.....
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
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