Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Isaac...

Post by rgprice »

It may be that Paul is talking about the historical Joshua son of Nun, a Messiah for the Jewish people, a title he could rightly be granted. But the "rising" of Joshua was a recent event. Joshua died a long time ago, but he is risen now.

Again:
Romans 5:
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Joshua the Messiah, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Joshua the Messiah, abounded for the many.
When were the Jews weak? Early in their history, before the time of David.

When were the Jews sinners? When they still worshiped idols.
Joshua 24:
19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve the Lord!” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 He said, “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “The Lord our God we will serve, and him we will obey.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made statutes and ordinances for them at Shechem. 26 Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak in the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “See, this stone shall be a witness against us; for it has heard all the words of the Lord that he spoke to us; therefore it shall be a witness against you, if you deal falsely with your God.”
When were "we" enemies? Jews and the nations? Well, honestly many times, but when Joshua was making war against the nations.

Why did death only exercise dominion from Adam to Moses? After Moses comes Joshua.
rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

Working through this s bit more. So if we now read the hymn from Philippians:
who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.

9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name
,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Who did God give this name to? Hoshea son of Nun, who becomes Joshua.

What about the cross and crucifixion? I think this is just pesher on the suffering servant, equating Joshua with the suffering servant.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 amWho did God give this name to? Hoshea son of Nun, who becomes Joshua.

What about the cross and crucifixion? I think this is just pesher on the suffering servant, equating Joshua with the suffering servant.
My thread on Joshua/Jesus from way back may be of interest to you: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3076.

Oh, and another one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5637.

(Both of those are speculative and experimental, and I am still forming conclusions on the entire matter.)
rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

Thanks Ben.

Hung on a tree?
Joshua 8:
29 And he hanged the king of Ai on a tree until evening; and at sunset Joshua commanded, and they took his body down from the tree, threw it down at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raised over it a great heap of stones, which stands there to this day.
This clearly talks about Joshua hanging someone else on a tree, but might this be a source for some pesher that puts Joshua on the tree?

"at sunset Joshua commanded, and they took his body down from the tree, threw it down at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raised over it a great heap of stones, which stands there to this day... until it was raised from the dead!"

Reaching of course...

But still, there are quite a few interesting elements here.

At sunset Joshua cried out!
They took his body down from the tree
at the entrance of the gate of the city.
They buried it under a great heap of stones.

Mark 15: 37 Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last.
Hebrews 13: 12 Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.
Mark 15: Taking down the body ... laid it in a tomb that had been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

Rather interesting coincidences...
davidmartin
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by davidmartin »

wouldn't the Talmud have something to say on this messiah Joshua idea, especially if they were aware the Christian Jesus's name derived from the biblical Joshua?

PS Is it possible to imagine someone named 'Joses' or 'Josis' the short Greek form of Joseph being etymologically connected back to the Hebrew Joshua?
They look kind of similar in Greek just wondered.
rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:21 pm wouldn't the Talmud have something to say on this messiah Joshua idea, especially if they were aware the Christian Jesus's name derived from the biblical Joshua?

PS Is it possible to imagine someone named 'Joses' or 'Josis' the short Greek form of Joseph being etymologically connected back to the Hebrew Joshua?
They look kind of similar in Greek just wondered.
One would think. But there is a possibility that because it got associated with "Christians" they never developed that line of legends. Also, if this "Joshua sect" sprang up shortly before the war, its also possible that Jews would have abandoned it following the outcome of the war. It just got picked up by Gentiles after the Gospel of Mark was written. Thus it could have just had a very short-lived life within Judaism, from say the 40s to 65 CE.

All speculation of course. There is certainly more evidence than just this to support it. But none will be conclusive.

But Enoch and Melchezedeck are direct models for exactly this type of development.
robert j
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

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rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

I'll let you read the thread robert, but yeah, I agree that Jesus is not a descendant of David. What I'm proposing is very simple. Jesus Christ is simply Joshua the Messiah (son of Nun). What's laid out in the thread are reasons to believe that the Joshua Paul was talking about lived and died during the time of Moses, only recently to have been raised from the dead.
rgprice
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

We'll here's a stumbling block to the idea that Jesus Christ / Joshua son of Nun that comes from Romans itself:
Romans 10:
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?
Doesn't seem likely that Paul could say this about Joshua, or really anyone else from the scriptures. I'm not sure of a way to address this. This statement would seem to preclude Jesus being anyone other than a figure of Paul's imagination...
Bernard Muller
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rgprice,
It may be that Paul is talking about the historical Joshua son of Nun, a Messiah for the Jewish people, a title he could rightly be granted. But the "rising" of Joshua was a recent event. Joshua died a long time ago, but he is risen now.
Do you have evidence that Joshua son of Nun was widely known to have risen recently (relative to Paul's times)?
Or
do we have any ancient Jewish text pre-dating Paul's times relating to that Joshua's rising?
We'll here's a stumbling block to the idea that Jesus Christ / Joshua son of Nun that comes from Romans itself:
Romans 10:
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?
Doesn't seem likely that Paul could say this about Joshua, or really anyone else from the scriptures. I'm not sure of a way to address this. This statement would seem to preclude Jesus being anyone other than a figure of Paul's imagination...
In Romans 10:14 (as in whole Ro 10), Paul was lamenting about Jews (Ro 9:30-33) who, generally, were not adopting Paul's Christianity.
Rom 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

Remark: did Joshua son of Nun ended the law?

Cordially, Bernard
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