On the Epistle to the Hebrews

[gryan]

Hebrews 4 continues 'they would/shall never enter His rest' of Heb 3:

[ is there a play on widespread use of κατάπαυσιν in Heb 3:11,18 (and in Heb 4) and κατάσχωμεν of Heb 3:14 ? ]

Hebrews 4

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1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest - κατάπαυσιν - still stands...
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RE: promised "rest" - κατάπαυσιν, Cf Joshua 1:12-15

12But to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, Joshua said, 13“Remember what Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you when he said, ‘The LORD your God will give you rest (κατέπαυσεν), and He will give you this land.’ 14Your wives, your young children, and your livestock may remain in the land that Moses gave you on this side of the Jordan. But all your mighty men of valor must be armed for battle to cross over ahead of your brothers and help them, 15until the LORD gives them rest (καταπαύσῃ) as He has done for you, and your brothers also possess the land that the LORD your God is giving them. Then you may return to the land of your inheritance and take possession of that which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the east side of the Jordan.”

I'm not clear on this: Within the book of Joshua (and/or in the larger frame of the OT), "the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh" enter the "rest" promised to them by the LORD through Joshua?

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,
Sure Hebrews made a lot of use of the OT, especially the Psalms (by extracting small pieces from them), in order to support/justify the author's Christology/Theology.
I wrote in http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html (then "find" on: 28.2 )

"let's observe again the (highly strategic) changes (about authorship and referred entity) in the quoted scripture passages (especially the psalms)."

And then I gave plenty of examples.

one about the order of Melchizedek, while also humanising Jesus

There was no need to use Melchizedek in order to humanize Jesus, considering:
"For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." (Heb 7:14)
AND
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.
For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:14-17)

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

Hebrews 4 continues the 'they would/shall never enter His rest' of Heb 3:

[ is there a word-play on widespread use of κατάπαυσιν - rest - in Heb 3:11,18 (and in Heb 4) and κατάσχωμεν - we should hold - of Heb 3:14 ? ]

Hebrews 4

.
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest - κατάπαυσιν - still stands...
.

RE: promised "rest" - κατάπαυσιν, Cf Joshua 1:12-15

12 But to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, Joshua said, 13 “Remember what Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you when he said, ‘The LORD your God will give you rest (κατέπαυσεν), and He will give you this land.’ 14 Your wives, your young children, and your livestock may remain in the land that Moses gave you on this side of the Jordan. But all your mighty men of valor must be armed for battle to cross over ahead of your brothers and help them, 15 until the LORD gives them rest (καταπαύσῃ) as He has done for you, and your brothers also possess the land that the LORD your God is giving them. Then you may return to the land of your inheritance and take possession of that which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the east side of the Jordan.”

I'm not clear on this: Within the book of Joshua (and/or in the larger frame of the OT), "the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh" enter the "rest" promised to them by the LORD through Joshua?

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"1:12-18​ The narrative now remembers that part of the land has already been given and possessed, that is, the Transjordanian part (to the east of the River Jordan). This was territory already acquired under Moses by victories over the Amorite kings Sihon and Og and given to the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and half-Manasseh. The story is told in Numbers 32 and Deut 2:26–3:22. This part of the land did not easily fit into the typology of “crossing over” to possess, since Israel did not have to cross over to take it. Its importance, however, is clear from the number of times the narrative returns to it in Numbers-Joshua (see also Num 21:31-35; Josh 12:1-6; 13:8-33).

"The description of the transJordanian settlement is quite in line with the promise of land. The territory is a place where Yaweh is "giving rest" to these tribes, [rest is] the term used for settling down in peace in the land he is giving (cf. Duet. 12:9-10; Josh 11:23; 21:44).1 The unity of the transJordanian tribes with the rest of Israel is carefully maintained in the duty laid on them to assist their fellow Israelites in taking the land beyond the Jordan. Yet it looks as if two “lands” are in view here, one on each side of the Jordan (vv. 13, 15), each “possessed” by the different parts of Israel. Whether, therefore, the Transjordanian area is part of the promised land in the strict sense is always somewhat in doubt. Perhaps for this reason Moses could lead in this part of the conquest, though he had been forbidden by God from crossing the Jordan and leading the conquest proper (Deut 1:37-38; 3:23-29).

"Even so, the Transjordanians declare their loyalty to Joshua and his right to the obedience Moses had once enjoyed (vv. 16-18). Thus, before the narrative of conquest proper in Joshua, the issue of the unity of Israel is recalled, though not yet finally settled (see ch. 22). The taking of the land beyond the Jordan is part of a project already begun by Moses."

McConville, G; Williams, S. (2010). Joshua (The Two Horizons New Testament Commentary) . Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., p.15.

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1 Deut. 12.9-10
8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord.

Joshua 11:23 [after the 'fact']
So Joshua took the entire land, just as the Lord had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war.

Joshua 21:44 [also after the 'fact']
43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
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[MrMacSon]

So, to recap on mentions of 'rest', κατάπαυσιν, κατάπαυσίν, κατέπαυσεν, (σαββατισμὸς), -

Psalm 95.11

Deuteronomy 12.9-10

Joshua 1, vv. 12 & 15

Joshua 11 and 21

Hebrews 3, vv. 11 & 18; and

Hebrews 4 vv, 1, 3 (twice), 4 ([~sabbath-]'rested'), 5, 8, 9 ('Sabbath-rest', σαββατισμὸς), 10 (twice), and v.11.

[MrMacSon]

with different bolding -

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, [it was simply written that] he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
and deliver all those who...fear of death ...
For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned...with the descendants of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might [be seen to have] become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:14-17)

Cordially, Bernard

It's literature, Bernard, and unlikely to be factual history.

As Mcconville and Williams said for the book of Joshua -

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... the events are told, in some sense, to account for situations that exist later and that are already familiar to readers.

McConville, Gordon; Williams, Stephen (2010) Joshua (The Two Horizons New Testament Commentary) . Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co..

- similar could be said for Hebrews (and other NT passages or even whole NT books), viz. -

• "The feature of OT passages in Hebrews indicate that the events are told, in some sense, to account for situations that are said to exist later, yet that are already familiar to readers."

To further steal and modify something McConville and Williams said soon after -

• [Hebrews] is undoubtedly theological in character, since it aims, like much of [both] the Old [and New] Testament[s], to persuade its audience to remain faithful to [Jesus Christ, the new God of Israel =/- to Yahweh, God of Israel] ... Christian theology has at its heart claims about events that [supposedly] happened in [Jewish] history ... The theological character of [Hebrews] comes across strongly in certain narratives ...
  
  [Hebrews and other contemporaneous texts] then became Yahweh’s and Israel’s version of a [new] kind of literature [attractive] to people at the time. Such accounts were naturally shaped to the purpose of demonstrating the [new] god’s supreme power over events [past, present, and into the future].

[GakuseiDon]

1 Hebrews 2

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5 It is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

........“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
.......... a son of man that you care for him? [Psalm 8:4]

...7...You made them a little lower than the angels;
..........you crowned them with glory and honor [Psalm 8:5]

...8...and put everything under their feet.” [Psalm 8:6b]

In putting everything under Him/them, God left nothing that is not subject to Him/them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to Him/them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory2 and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
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Out of interest, which version of the NT are you using here? I don't see "for a little while" in KJV or YLT. It has "for the suffering of death".

[MrMacSon]

Out of interest, which version of the NT are you using here? I don't see "for a little while" in KJV or YLT. It has "for the suffering of death".

Unfortunately(?), I think it was/is the NIV.

The NRSV also has 'for a little while' for Heb 2:9 (though in a different order) -

8(b) ... Now in subjecting all things to them, He/God left nothing outside their control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to them, 9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made [a little] lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death so, that by the grace of He/God, he might taste death for everyone.

I've also had the Apostolic Bible Polyglot recommended to me: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/aposto ... rews/2.htm

[Ben C. Smith]

Out of interest, which version of the NT are you using here? I don't see "for a little while" in KJV or YLT. It has "for the suffering of death".

Unfortunately(?), I think it was/is the NIV.

The NRSV also has 'for a little while' for Heb 2:9 (though in a different order) -

8(b) ... Now in subjecting all things to them, He/God left nothing outside their control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to them, 9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made [a little] lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death so, that by the grace of He/God, he might taste death for everyone.

I've also had the Apostolic Bible Polyglot recommended to me: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/aposto ... rews/2.htm

The culprit is the Greek adverb βραχύ. It can mean either "a little" with reference to how much lower Jesus was than the angels or "a short time" with reference to how long he was lower than the angels. The translator has to make an educated guess.

[GakuseiDon]

The culprit is the Greek adverb βραχύ. It can mean either "a little" with reference to how much lower Jesus was than the angels or "a short time" with reference to how long he was lower than the angels. The translator has to make an educated guess.

Thanks Ben. Interesting, I've never seen that reading before. I'm guessing that if Heb 2:9 was inspired by Psalm 8:5 ("For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels"), then that would be best how to read Heb. Is "a short time" a more natural reading somehow in the Greek of Heb 2:9, that it should be selected as a preferred translation?

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet

[Ben C. Smith]

The culprit is the Greek adverb βραχύ. It can mean either "a little" with reference to how much lower Jesus was than the angels or "a short time" with reference to how long he was lower than the angels. The translator has to make an educated guess.

Thanks Ben. Interesting, I've never seen that reading before. I'm guessing that if Heb 2:9 was inspired by Psalm 8:5 ("For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels"), then that would be best how to read Heb.

Yes, and in the Hebrew it is actually "God," not "angels," at any rate.

Is "a short time" a more natural reading somehow in the Greek of Heb 2:9, that it should be selected as a preferred translation?

Not in my opinion, no; either translation is possible in the Greek. The question arises of how the author of Hebrews understood the phrase if he did not happen to know Hebrew. At that point we are no longer translating the Greek but rather interpreting the meaning.